GeForce FX 5200 --It's Only VCR Quality TV Out?

[FreeBSD4me]

Originally Posted by insomniac

Was night and day for me..

Your mileage may vary.

I have a feeling you may very well be right, which is why I'm going to grab some good quality cables tommorow --well in this one-horse town, I'll try, but I may end up having to order them online.

D.

[FreeBSD4me]

Here’s how it all wrapped up:

First of all, an extended thanks once again to Stanger and all others that helped out here.

A message that will hopefully assist PVR noobs in their initial configuration of a PVR 250 and SageTV:

It should be noted that this document is based on the use of a Satellite receiver, or Digital cable feed. I don’t know what an analog or coaxial feed would look like through this system, but if you’re using digital of any kind, it’s likely you’re spoiled by a flawless output signal, and no doubt expecting this same quality of output through your PVR.

For anyone new to PVR configurations, BE AWARE… Both the video card and the PVR card, (at least the 250) anyway DO NOT like composite video! Will it work? Sure it will, but the signal looks as if someone’s scaled it back to 50% of its strength, thus resulting in a picture somewhat indicative of a dirty fishbowl –at least that was the case here.

In addition, if you’re using TV-Out, DO NOT put a great deal of faith into the “supplied” S-Video, or S-Video to composite cable supplied with the card! In the case of the GeForce 5200, this dinky little “unshielded” cable picked up enough noise to make it appear as if you were running it through a microwave oven. It’s brutal, and as far as I’m concerned, never carried the full signal to the TV anyway.

So here’s the cool stuff: I raced on down to my local RS, and grabbed a couple of S-Video/ S-Video to composite monster cables. Plugged them it and WOW… The whole picture lit up to a point where I thought my TV was going to explode! You see… I had everything maxed (when using composite), and was essentially trying to compensate for what was never there in the first place –this is what resulted in a grainy, washout picture.

So, for anyone wondering if there’s a discernable difference between S-Video and Composite, there most certainly is in the case of a PVR application! I could have saved myself a week of screwing with my system had I of realized the extreme difference this small detail would make. Too bad these cards didn’t offer component video, as I’m certain this would really benefit those with large screen TV’s, but in time I suppose.

Just to clarify my configuration, I now have S-Video going from my Sat box to the PVR 250, and S-Video to Composite from my GeForce 5200 into my TV. Bummer… I don’t have an S-Video input on my TV, however the new highly shielded cable I’m using works awesome.

For anyone wondering about the types and quality of signal input, here’s a snippet I grabbed beginning with the worst, and ending with the best.

Coax is what you typically use to connect traditional cable TV to your VCR or TV. It is a threaded F-type connector. The picture quality of a coax signal is limited, but it is useful because the cable can be run long distances. The typical PC to TV converter does not have a coax output. If your TV only has a coax input, then you must use an RF modulator to convert the PC to TV converter's composite video output into coax. Most VCRs can be used for this purpose as well.

Composite video is traditionally what you would use to plug your VCR or video camera into your TV. It typically has yellow RCA-type connectors. The picture is slightly better than coax, but is still limited in terms of color clarity and detail. Composite video can be run 35 - 50 feet before the signal begins to lose noticeable clarity.

S-video became more common on TVs with the advent of DVD players a few years ago. S-video can be found on most TVs larger than 27 inches. It is a round 4-pin mini-DIN connector. S-video signals offer a clarity about 20% better than composite video in terms of color and detail. It is the recommended method for connecting PC to TV converters, unless you have...

Component video has become the most common connection method for digital television, HDTV and high-end DVD players. Component video consists of three RCA-type connectors (red, green and blue). Component video offers a clarity about 15% clearer than S-video when using a PC to TV converter. Component video is not yet common, so check your TV to see if you have it. If the TV is over 3 years old, it's a safe bet that you don't.

Again, this was based on my personal experience. I realize the pro’s are already aware of this, but hopefully, it will save someone else the time I wasted, and as a result of using the wrong cabling and signal type.

Many thanks again,

Dave H

[stanger89]

Glad to hear you have it working (sorry it took so long)...

Originally Posted by FreeBSD4me

Too bad these cards didn’t offer component video, as I’m certain this would really benefit those with large screen TV’s, but in time I suppose.

FWIW, I'd estimate that S-Video gives you about 90-99% of the picture quality of Component when run at SD (480i) resolution. The true benefit of Component it it's ability to cary >480i content (480p, 720p, 1080i), and I'll agree, it's too bad there's no HD version of the PVR 250.

Oh, and you forgot, VGA and DVI, probably the two best connections

[FreeBSD4me]

It’s sort of odd they wouldn’t offer a version with those options, since most of the market (at present) would likely be A/V enthusiasts with high-end TV’s, and looking to squeak every last bit of quality out of them –generally you wouldn’t use composite, or even S-Video for that matter if you had Component, DVI, or VGA capability –something most high-end video systems utilize. Actually, it looks like the original intent of Hauppauge products was something you’d use for watching TV on your PC, and not your TV set.

Actually, I was amazed at the amount of sites I ran across, (before this one), where TV-Out wasn’t even discussed. In fact, the vast majority of products, except the 350 assume you’ll be doing all of your watching on your PC. Very confusing, as it takes a while to realize that most of the hype for PVR’s is targeted at the PC user. It took two weeks, before I finally realized I’d need to be shopping for two different components –an Mpeg capture card, AND a TV-Out card. To add more confusion, when I discovered the 350, which claimed to be the ultimate bundled solution, it turns out it has a number of limitations, but some of which STV has worked around, however.

It’d be nice to see an integrated product, which is fully tuned/ optimized for TV-Out, as opposed to using a video card, which as many here have pointed out, are generally not the intended use for a graphics card, but really more of an afterthought on the manufactures behalf. This would really cut back on the amount of guesswork and configuration that goes into getting everything “just right.”

Anyway.. I’m rambling here. The picture is excellent, but still a little lacking in darker shows like the Sopranos and COPS. This is where I think I’ll need to start experimenting with various decoders. I can’t tweak the color settings anymore, without compromising at either end of the spectrum. I also need to run a 3.2 Mbps to maintain good quality, so again… I assume this to be a decoder issue. A list of links to the “recommended” decoders I should test drive would be nice

Thanks,

Dave

[insomniac]

Glad your working. S-video was it!

Try this first. Default out your color settings on your capture card(not your tv). Then up your contrast to about 150 or so. Find the sweet spot when you see the darks just starting to bleed into each other, then back off a little.

in the near future, a great tv show to do your darks and grey scales is "24". It has lots of darks (or at least has been for the last 3 seasons). If not, any show will do

If you notice when you calibrate on your capture card, you cannot see the color changes until after it goes through buffer. Trust me, rewind...you will get the old picture output.

I believe that from previous posts, you have said that you do all your adjusting on the tv. This will not help you if the picture is actually being captured with poor color quality. I could be wrong, but this is my experience with this subject.

I.

[FreeBSD4me]

Hah hah… Now you’ve got ‘me’ confused.

You’re saying, or you’re thinking I do most of my color adjustments through the actual TV itself, or did you mean through the graphics card? I’ll try to set it straight here: I’ve never touched the actual setting on my Sony TV, as the defaults have always provided optimal results. I have messed around with the GeForce 5200 settings, however since installing the S-Video cables, have pretty much set them back to default. Besides, anything you do in there, often makes more of a mess than what it fixes –again, it looks like TV was not the thing they had in mind when they built the card.

Now there’s the PVR 250 settings when you open WinTV. These have me utterly confused, and for a number of reasons. For one thing, if you try to adjust its bitrate settings, it ignores them, and returns to the defaults. In fact, I just noticed that when you make a change in there, the “Apply” button doesn’t even light up –Just the OK button. Weird stuff…

Yep, you can adjust the color settings on it, which I have since set to default since going to S-Video. Thing is, do these settings affect STV at all? I could not tell the difference. Actually, I thought STV took control of the 250’s settings when you go into its color calibration setting. I’m starting to think that nothing you do to the 250 is applicable once you open STV.

If I’m wrong here, then do enlighten me, as that would mean the bitrate settings on the 250, as well as color “do” play a paramount role in achieving ultimate performance through STV. I do know something is out of whack at this point: Something is running way too hot --the background of my screen when watching STV (just before a commercial break-- when it goes dark) is too bright, and is showing some sort of grid in the background. This I believe, is coming from the GeForce 5200, but what would cause that?

All settings to date, or at least the majority of them are done through the STV color calibration interface. After reading your post, I’m now convinced that something is not set correctly on the PVR 250, or the GeForce 5200.

Thanks,

Dave

[salsbst]

Editing settings in WinTV does nothing for you if you use SageTV. You should make changes using SageTV, not WinTV.

And, as an aside, 150 is way, way too high for contrast in my environment, but environments clearly differ.

[insomniac]

In short, what salsbst is what you need to do.

never touch wintv again. What im saying is that you should adjust your color calibration from within the capture card settings (inside the setup wizard).

The rest of my post applies. e.g. default settings, contrast, etc.

I had read in a past post, that you said that you adjust your color settings "on the tv"...so i was making sure that you adjusted your settings on a capture level. If you are adjusting your color settings, make sure that you are not in buffer, or you will not see your changes.

I.

Originally Posted by salsbst

Editing settings in WinTV does nothing for you if you use SageTV. You should make changes using SageTV, not WinTV.

And, as an aside, 150 is way, way too high for contrast in my environment, but environments clearly differ.

[FreeBSD4me]

Originally Posted by salsbst

Editing settings in WinTV does nothing for you if you use SageTV. You should make changes using SageTV, not WinTV.

Which is exactly what I discovered/ stated in the above post

Originally Posted by salsbst

And, as an aside, 150 is way, way too high for contrast in my environment, but environments clearly differ.

In which setting are you reffering too? Much of my problems are with contrast. I can configure a killer picture on normal feeds such as CNN --perfect contrast, brightness, etc. Once I try darker shows like cops or sopranos, no matter what... No matter how perfect I had it, the darker shows result in a lack of contrast. Ok, so increase contrast a bit... Great... Now normal shows like CNN or MSNBC have a lingering white haze within them.

I still think I'm trying to compensate for what the Intervideo decoder just isn't capable of putting out. I'm running at DVD standard play --I guess I could push it up even higher, which would likely solve the problems, but surely there must be a decoder that does a better job of maintaining intregrity within darker recordings, and without running at high bit rates.

Regardless, at this point, anything I record that's darker really suffers from poor quality/ performance. I know it's hard to maintain resolution and good overall quality in darker shows, but it has to get better than this.

If I were to decribe performance in the Sopranos (for example), I'd say it looks like a washed out oil painting, or really lacking dynamic range for the most part.

Thanks,

Dave

PS… Who’s managing the server this forum is on? They seem to be having ongoing problems. DNS appears to be flip flopping, or the site fails to respond at all. If it’s that busy, it belongs on a dedicated server at pair.com, or some other high-performance provider. Not complaining –just a suggestion

[salsbst]

I was only trying to answer your question:

Thing is, do these settings affect STV at all?

Anyway, I'm referring to the only place where you should be able to edit the contrast in SageTV, which is the only place where you should be editing the contrast.... the capture calibration settings.... contrast and brightness interact with each other in a big way -- when you change one, you have to change the other.

IIRC, I have contrast in the 120s and brightness just over 100.

[FreeBSD4me]

That’s what I’ve been doing. I played around with the WinTV settings a few days ago, but did discover that they’re not applicable to STV, and set everything to its default some time ago. And yes to the issue of setting colors and the buffering factor. I figured that out a few days ago as well.

You know what? I found the problem. I cranked up the Recording Quality to Mpeg2 Max Quality, 5.6 gigs per hour, and KILLER video! Wow.. I’m switching between the raw input (from the sat box), and PVR with virtually no degradation at all. Color vibrancy, brightness, contrast, is almost perfect, and that’s with all STV color calibration settings at their defaults!

What are most of you running your quality at for live TV? I figure either I’ll need to find a better decoder, or if it’s just not possible to get this quality from 2 or 3 gigs per hour, then grab a 200 Gig drive and continue at MPEG2 Maximum Quality. Anyway, that’s the good news, in that I now know what the problem is.

Dave

[stanger89]

Dave,

There's a few things I want to comment on, but they're from a few posts and I'm too lazy to quote them

Re Component/VGA/DVI caputure - the problem is not the connections it's the bandwidth. In order for the above connections to give meaningful improvement they need to be run at >480i resolutions, and capturing >480i requires VERY expensive hardware. I hope we'll see an HD version of the CX23416, and hopefully then we'll see HD caputre cards.

Re calibration - There are 3 adjustments I make in my system:
1) Calibrate the TV to your HTPC with something like DVE. I do this using VMR9 since Overlay (at least on my Radeon 9500 is very far off). From what I've seen/read VMR9 will give you reference levels.
2) Calibrate Overlay to match VMR9 (IMO, mess with overlay only if you know your TV is calibrated correctly), basically do the same thing a 1) except adjust the Overlay color controls instead of your TV's.
3) Calibrate your capture settings (in SageTV), this is where the histogram filter comes in very handy. Since no test patterns are broadcast, the histogram filter clearly shows if you are have the correct brightess (black level) and maximum contrast. If you don't feel like messing with ffdshow/histogram filter, then you can do this buy eye. Do what insomniac said, raise the brightness so it's clearly too high, and then reduce it until you start "crushing" blacks, then raise it a couple. Then do the opposite for Contrast, drop it until white is gray and raise it until you start "crushing" whites, and then drop it a few. You'll have to go back and forth because contrast changes black level (if you have brightness just right and raise contrast, brightness becomes too low). Like I said, I really like using the histogram filter for this, it just makes it easier and takes a little of the guesswork out of it.

[FreeBSD4me]

Many thanks Sir. I think I have everything is that department as good as it gets. As I mentioned earlier today, I ramped up the quality settings to Maximim/ 5.6 gigs per hour. While most could likely argue this is overkill, and hardly viable on the typical HD, I can’t help but leave it there for now.

Can you believe this? With the exception of some very minor tweaks, all video card, PVR, and STV calibration settings are at their “defaults”. I have crisp killer video, and a virtual (identical picture), side-by-side-test up against the raw video feed. I haven’t tested it with darker shows yet, but I suspect it will be equally impressive with virtually no loss in resolution.

So is this a problem, or should I expect to sacrifice this amount of drive space if I insist on this level of quality? Is anyone else running Maximum Quality 5.6 Gigs for live TV, or is it just me? I have a feeling this is a decoder issue more than anything to do with messing around with color settings, however I have yet to see an easy way, or page that offers you a list of decoders to test drive. I’ve ran several searches, but cannot seem to find a specific place to locate these. What do you think? Am I way off base here, or does this seem about right?

Thanks,

Dave H