GeForce FX 5200 --It's Only VCR Quality TV Out?

[FreeBSD4me]

Ah yes, you mean those nice registry tweaks that I enabled a few hours ago for the pvr-250? You're saying I should disable those now? Ok, I'll put them back to 0.

Dave

[stanger89]

Overlay, VMR9, Default are all video renderers, they are part of the OS/DirectX/Video card system. They are what "paints" the video on your screen.

[FreeBSD4me]

Ok, well.. I don’t think I’m going to get ffdshow to work. Unfortunately, there are now anomalies beginning to occur that no ones even heard of before, and I find myself venturing down a road that’s becoming less and less familiar. I did change those registry settings back to 0, but still get nothing more than frozen video when using the ffdshow decoder. Now I’m noticing the audio beginning to chunk out, and I have no idea of what has caused that.

I will get back to it, but at this point, my knowledge of the overall digital video thing just isn’t at a point where I can hack through the basics, nonetheless getting into highly advanced decoder diagnostics and configurations. I was going to ask if someone wanted to log into my machine via VNC, and have a look, but figured that might be asking too much for one day.

I’m going to ghost my drive with STV and ffshow, descailer, etc configured, then restore the most recent image, which is where I left off earlier today. I’d like to try that nvDVD 3.0 beta video decoder, but cannot find a place to download it. Kny3twalker said to PM him, but I haven’t heard back yet. I hope some day I can give back to this forum, in return for all the help I’ve received thus far. All of your help is muchly appreciated.

Dave

[stanger89]

Well here try this, it's not as good as doing it yourself, but try these capture settings:
Brightness ~ 110
Contrast ~ 100
Saturation ~ 131
Hue ~ 128

[FreeBSD4me]

Well my friend, I think we’ve just proven there’s something really mis, or unconfigured here. Before applying your settings, I changed all of the 5200’s settings back to default. I then changed all color settings in STV back to default. I the applied your settings, and what I got was a fairly dark, washed out picture. It’s like looking through a TV screen coated in cigarette smoke resin, or a first generation color TV by RCA or something.

This is what I mean by I’m not convinced that a calibration will solve these particular problems. The only thing I haven’t messed with is the PVR-250 settings –well… except for the color and brightness settings, but I don’t even think they’re applicable when using STV. Again… If I switch to the raw feed, it’s a stunningly vibrant picture, so I know it’s not the TV or anything. This is sort of a drag, as I have no way of knowing what, where, or if there’s a problem with my card, however if I put the ATI 9600 pro back in, the results are pretty much the same.

Dave

[insomniac]

forgive me for not reading the 3 pages, but i read your first post and was wondering if something in that post still applied:

Are you really using composite from your sat box? If so...problem #1. Use the svideo to get a much better picture! Get the best quality picture before you start to calibrate. You cannot calibrate fuzz.

If you have changed this, then all other advise applies

I.


EDIT:

FYI,

Im using a fx5200 video out with great results. It is obviously not HDTV, but it is comparable to standard tv if you were to go direct.

[FreeBSD4me]

Originally Posted by insomniac

forgive me for not reading the 3 pages, but i read your first post and was wondering if something in that post still applied:

Are you really using composite from your sat box? If so...problem #1. Use the svideo to get a much better picture! Get the best quality picture before you start to calibrate. You cannot calibrate fuzz.

If you have changed this, then all other advise applies

I.


EDIT:

FYI,

Im using a fx5200 video out with great results. It is obviously not HDTV, but it is comparable to standard tv if you were to go direct.

Yeah, I’m still using composite from the sat box, until I can grab an S-Video cable. Btw, I’m not getting any fuzz –just a really dull, or washed out looking picture. I'm sure it was a figure of speech If I plug that same composite in as “raw signal” (bypassing the PVR), it’s crystal. It just seems like something else is wrong here.

Dave

[insomniac]

It could very well be that the composite on the capture card sucks. Was the case in mine. Definately buy a s-video cable. composite is crap, and should not be used for tv-out.

I.

Originally Posted by FreeBSD4me

Yeah, I’m still using composite from the sat box, until I can grab an S-Video cable. Btw, I’m not getting any fuzz –just a really dull, or washed out looking picture. I'm sure it was a figure of speech If I plug that same composite in as “raw signal” (bypassing the PVR), it’s crystal. It just seems like something else is wrong here.

Dave

[FreeBSD4me]

Wait though… How would I get S-Video directly to my TV if there’s no S-Video input on it? Maybe I’m totally missing something, but I can’t think of anywhere else I’d feed S-Video directly to. I can go S-Video from the sat box to the PVR-250, but regretfully, I think I’ll be stuck with composite from the card to the TV.

[jptaz]

Just a thought. When I used my TV out I found 720 x 480 on my TV looked much better than 640 x 480 or 800 x 600. I think I was using S Video, but composite should be better.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by FreeBSD4me

I then changed all color settings in STV back to default.

Well that's why I said just using someone else's numbers isn't ideal. FWIW, you don't need to use ffdshow to do the calibration, I just find it to be a very helpful aid to adjusting the settings.

This is what I mean by I’m not convinced that a calibration will solve these particular problems. The only thing I haven’t messed with is the PVR-250 settings –well… except for the color and brightness settings, but I don’t even think they’re applicable when using STV.

The Capture Color settings (Setup Wizard -> [your source] -> Color Calibration) most definitely do make a difference with SageTV, I can see the difference as I adjust them.

Are you adjusting the settings on this screen:

[insomniac]

yea..i caught my mistake on my post as soon as i hit go....but i figured you would pick it up.

If your stuck with the composite to your tv...you stuck with it; but..i would highly suggest that you run svideo from your sat box to your pvr..there is a possiblility of either your composite out on your dish box or your composite in on your pvr might have issues or just plain suck for your config. Its such a small expense to try, you cant pass it up.

In your case, you are degrading color quality to your capture card, and then degradign it again to go to your tv. not good.

If you hit google, you can see quite a few comparisons for composite vs. s-video. Composite seems to white wash and degrade colors quite a bit. S-video might not be the greatest, but it might be your silver bullet.

everybody has a s-video cable laying around!

I.

Originally Posted by FreeBSD4me

Wait though… How would I get S-Video directly to my TV if there’s no S-Video input on it? Maybe I’m totally missing something, but I can’t think of anywhere else I’d feed S-Video directly to. I can go S-Video from the sat box to the PVR-250, but regretfully, I think I’ll be stuck with composite from the card to the TV.

[insomniac]

Could just be my eye, but I like my contrast cranked up much higher (150). It seems to be more true on the blacks and greyscales.

BTW,

Does anyone have an Avia disc laying around? Id like to hear if anyone gets good results from it. It sure would be nice to calibrate with something like that for once!

I.



[QUOTE=stanger89]Well that's why I said just using someone else's numbers isn't ideal. FWIW, you don't need to use ffdshow to do the calibration, I just find it to be a very helpful aid to adjusting the settings.



The Capture Color settings (Setup Wizard -> [your source] -> Color Calibration) most definitely do make a difference with SageTV, I can see the difference as I adjust them.

Are you adjusting the settings on this screen:
[QUOTE]

EDIT: just killed the picture..

[FreeBSD4me]

Originally Posted by jptaz

Just a thought. When I used my TV out I found 720 x 480 on my TV looked much better than 640 x 480 or 800 x 600. I think I was using S Video, but composite should be better.

Yep, just playing around with that. It’s like a can achieve decent video, (within the confines of the PVR), but when I switch back to raw video, it’s like someone just turned up the lights. Colors are vibrant, and everything within the picture comes alive. No matter how much I try to match this through the 5200’s or STV’s settings, I can’t get within 60% quality of the raw feed. If I try to over compensate for this, then I end up with washout, or faces that light up like Casper the friendly ghost, and a light haze throughout the picture.

I’m pretty good a fine-tuning color on just about any system, but it’s almost like I’m fighting against some other force outside of the norm here.

Dave

[FreeBSD4me]

[QUOTE=stanger89]Well that's why I said just using someone else's numbers isn't ideal. FWIW, you don't need to use ffdshow to do the calibration, I just find it to be a very helpful aid to adjusting the settings.



The Capture Color settings (Setup Wizard -> [your source] -> Color Calibration) most definitely do make a difference with SageTV, I can see the difference as I adjust them.

Are you adjusting the settings on this screen:

EDIT: just killed the picture..

Yes, as ackward as it is, I do all adjusting on the actual TV. Man... I'm running out of options here. I mean.. At it's very best, I suppose it's tolerable, but not what I was hoping for in a digital video system

Dave

[insomniac]

one more suggestion. But this one will cost you money, so i suggest you exhaust all other suggestions first :0

frys sells a scanline converter for like $90 ...dont ask me what brand...been a long time.

I bought it a while back to compare the quality of my old svideo on my gf4 440mx to a converted vga signal. After testing it out for a few days, I deemed that it was in fact better quality, but I could not justify the price. Packed it back in the box and returned it.

Like I said...this should be last case scenerio, but what it can do it help you determine if your vid card tv-out is crappy or not.

but first, definately try the s-video to your pvr. Much cheaper...

edit: found the converter... http://shop4.outpost.com/product/3586914

[FreeBSD4me]

Thing is, I've tried both an ATI 9600 Pro, and a GeForce 5200. Both of them perform about the same, but will outdo each other in minor areas. I have a decent looking picture right now –It still won’t match up to the raw video feed, but it’s decent. I’m wondering if going S-Video from the SAT box, to the pvr-250 will really yield a noticeable difference.

The only question floating about in my head is, why does ‘raw’ composite look good when going directly into the TV, yet you feed it into the pvr-250, and it deteriorates that much? Will feeding S-Video into it really make that much of a difference? Do these system really favor processing an S-Video signal over a composite? I suppose we shall see tomorrow. Comments are welcome.

Dave

PS, don't forget that there's also the issue of that crappy S-Video to composite cable from the 5200 that I haven't replaced yet.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by insomniac

Does anyone have an Avia disc laying around? Id like to hear if anyone gets good results from it. It sure would be nice to calibrate with something like that for once!

I've got DVE, but IMO, it's worthless for calibrating your capture settings since it's almost certain that your cable box or cable feed is slightly different from that of the DVD player you'd need to use.

Because of this, I use the Dscaler histogram filter to allow me to accurately calibrate my color settings. On to the quick lesson (if I haven't bored you already )

Digital video has a finite specified range which it must fall in. Being an 8-bit format, the possible ranges are 0-255. Digital video (NTSC at least) is made up of 3 channels YUV, Y being brightness/lumance info, and U and V being color/chromance info. Y is defined to have a valid range of 16-235 and U and V -128-127 (not 100% sure on U/V). U and V are added to Y to make a color image.

Anyway, the Dscaler histogram filter plots a histogram of the Y content of the picture. If you look at the picture I posted above, you'll see that the far right and left of the bar are gray, those areas represent Y>235 and Y<16 respectively. The white area represents the valid (16-235). My goal when calibrating my capture settings is to set them such that the picture contains info all the way from 16-235, thus giving the maximum contrast and correct black level. See here:

The histogram shows no content in the gray areas, and content throughout the white area.

It's important to remember that not all content you see is meant to contain the full dynamic range, so try a few different channels (the channel +/- commands work in capture calibration) so you make sure you have it right for most content.

After doing that I get the following values:
Brightness: 128
Contrast: 105
And I would think you would agree that from that screenshot those values look correct

Now the tricky part, Saturation and Hue. The trouble is there's no similar, objective way I've found to set those (for most people), so you must use your own judgement/tastes to set those.

I said for most people, I am somewhat lucky in that my cable company broadcasts color bars so I can use a blue filter (from DVE) to calibrate my Hue and Sat based on that.

I don't know if it helps anyone or not, but I hope so.


Oh, I do highly recommend using DVE to calibrate your display device to your HTPC.

[insomniac]

Was night and day for me..

Your mileage may vary.

Originally Posted by FreeBSD4me

Thing is, I've tried both an ATI 9600 Pro, and a GeForce 5200. Both of them perform about the same, but will outdo each other in minor areas. I have a decent looking picture right now –It still won’t match up to the raw video feed, but it’s decent. I’m wondering if going S-Video from the SAT box, to the pvr-250 will really yield a noticeable difference.

The only question floating about in my head is, why does ‘raw’ composite look good when going directly into the TV, yet you feed it into the pvr-250, and it deteriorates that much? Will feeding S-Video into it really make that much of a difference? Do these system really favor processing an S-Video signal over a composite? I suppose we shall see tomorrow. Comments are welcome.

Dave

[insomniac]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Oh, I do highly recommend using DVE to calibrate your display device to your HTPC.

send me a copy and I will