Need Raid 5 Suggestions / Help

[stanger89]

While we're on the subject, I've got a question for those of you who have a media server going already:

Do you have a favorite bay adapter/cooler/HDD holder thingy?

I've (now ) got 8 WD2500s and need to throw them in 5.25" bays. I don't care about hot swap (so no $200 3ware hot-swap cages), but I think I'd like a fan/fans to keep things happy. I was thinking this:
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProduc...factory=BROWSE
But thought I'd check and see if anyone has any ideas. FWIW, I have a 10 bay full tower with 8 free bays so I don't really need the 3-in-2 holders.

[edbmdave]

I use the InClose (Now SanMax) PMD-96i-BLK s. Frys carries them. I am not as interested in hot/swapping (My media array can live for a couple hours until I shut it down and swap the drive), but they do have fans for cooling. They are plastic, but look ok, and I have used them for close to 4 years without any issues. I like them. (I try to be cheap..)

As this was a discussion about Raid 5 controllers, does anyone have any experience/opinions on the Promise SX4000 or the SX6000?

I have used SX4000 in a RAID5 for about 3 years now, and wanted to expand. And I have finally had my first drive failure. Was thinking of going to a 6 drive, and as I had good luck with the SX4000 was thinking about the SX6000.. Feedback?

Recommended Raid 5 Controllers? (PS I agree you should never use both the primary and secondary channel on an IDE for raid. seems to defeat a little of value, when a channel could fail.)

Which version of the WD2500 are you using the BB, the JB or the SB? The SB is designed for IDE Raid systems, but I was curious what mileage you may have gotten from what you are using...

[stanger89]

I'm die-hard 3ware. I have used Highpoint (onboard 374) and my roomate had a Promise (Fasstrak 100 IIRC) and those were both crap. Obviously the Supertraks are different, but still, I just don't trust Promise after that. My 7506-8 is my second 3ware and my friend has a 7500-8 and a 7500-4 and I can't say we've had trouble with them. They cost a bit, but they're really enterprise grade cards, so

As for drives, it's all mikbro's fault , I got a deal on 3 2500JBs and a 2500PB. And I just got my order of 4 2500JBs from newegg, so that makes 7x 2500JBs and 1 PB all 8MB cache 7200 rpm. Haven't even hooked em up yet, since I can't find any drive rails in town (our computer stores SUCK!). So I'm probably getting some cooled cages ASAP.

[mdmint]

Originally Posted by stanger89

While we're on the subject, I've got a question for those of you who have a media server going already:

Do you have a favorite bay adapter/cooler/HDD holder thingy?

I've (now ) got 8 WD2500s and need to throw them in 5.25" bays. I don't care about hot swap (so no $200 3ware hot-swap cages), but I think I'd like a fan/fans to keep things happy. I was thinking this:
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProduc...factory=BROWSE
But thought I'd check and see if anyone has any ideas. FWIW, I have a 10 bay full tower with 8 free bays so I don't really need the 3-in-2 holders.

You definitely want/need cooling for 8 HDs. But Stanger, you contradicted yourself! That link is for a 3in2 with single 80mm fan but you said you don't need 3in2. I'd do it anyway. You may later want to expand even storage even further! What I don't like about it is a single fan cooling 3 HDs. It'll do the job fine but I prefer a design with multiple smaller fans to do the same job. Why? If the single cage fan fails it could be toast time for all 3 HDs. My 4in3 cages have 3 fans each (yeah, the 3ware hotswap guys, they be sweet.) On the other hand, my Promise Hotswap single HD cages have a single fan for each HD so in some ways are at greater risk except only one HD and each cage is monitored with real time reporting etc.

Performance wise I've been happy with both 3ware & Promise. Used Promise Raid 1 simple controllers for many years no problem. Also using a FastTrak S150 SX4 with 256M ECC in my main workstation that's sweet too. The Escalade 9500S-8 in my Sage Server with 8 WD 2500JD RAID5 (7 in RAID5, #8 is online hotspare) keeps up with 5 simultaneous DVD Standard Q records and 3 Client DVD Standard playbacks no problem. Be fun to try a few more tuners to find it's real limit!

[korben_dallas]

If you don't mind having two boxes, setup the storage server with Linux and just put a crossover network cable between it and the Sage encoding server. 100MB network cards would probably be fine, but Gigabit wouldn't cost that much more. Buy a nice PCI controller card w/ Linux support and then get the hard drives off eBay or get rebate drives, 100 ATA is good, and better if you can get them 7,200 rpm w/ 8MB cache.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by mdmint

You definitely want/need cooling for 8 HDs. But Stanger, you contradicted yourself! That link is for a 3in2 with single 80mm fan but you said you don't need 3in2. I'd do it anyway.

I didn't mean to, I was just trying to open it up so if anyone knew of something better/cheaper that wasn't 3-in-2 they'd know it could work. The 3ware's would be nice, but I can't justify nearly $400 for hotswap cages I don't need.

Actually for cooling, I'm planning on replacing the included fans with Panaflos and 99% sure I'm getting an mCubed T-Balancer to regulate the fans/temperature.

korben,

These aren't going in my HTPC, they're going in my "workstation" possibly later transitioning into a server. Oh, and the NF7-S2G it's getting connected to has Gig-E onboard. And I already have all 8 drives, and for under $1000 for them as well. 2TB of storage (I know technically 1.75TB of RAID-5) for that is a pretty good deal, heck even if you include the RAID card it's a good deal.

[mdmint]

Originally Posted by korben_dallas

If you don't mind having two boxes, setup the storage server with Linux and just put a crossover network cable between it and the Sage encoding server. 100MB network cards would probably be fine, but Gigabit wouldn't cost that much more. Buy a nice PCI controller card w/ Linux support and then get the hard drives off eBay or get rebate drives, 100 ATA is good, and better if you can get them 7,200 rpm w/ 8MB cache.

Actually a 10/100 NIC card can not keep up with even a 7 Sata 7200 HD RAID5 data transfer when being fed from a RAID1 Sata 7200 HDs (my main workstation). I averaged 20% peaking close to 30% over 1Gb NICs backing up main workstation to Sage Server storage. Just did it and checked last night. And you're right, generic gigabit NICs are cheap, lowest on Pricewatch now $11 inc. s/h. And a Zonet 5 port gigabit switch down to $45 total cost, though I paid closer to $90 for my DLink last Spring.

[mdmint]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I didn't mean to, I was just trying to open it up so if anyone knew of something better/cheaper that wasn't 3-in-2 they'd know it could work. The 3ware's would be nice, but I can't justify nearly $400 for hotswap cages I don't need.

Actually for cooling, I'm planning on replacing the included fans with Panaflos and 99% sure I'm getting an mCubed T-Balancer to regulate the fans/temperature.

If you're not worrying about saving slots but are primarily looking at keeping it cheap these would work. I'm using them on a couple ATA 100 RAID1 in wife's PC. http://www.nexfan.com/nexfan03/ev3f5bayhddc.html

[stanger89]

That's still almost as much as the ones I found. But keep the ideas coming I've still got another day before I need to order (today or Sunday makes no difference in terms of shipping)

[mdmint]

Originally Posted by stanger89

That's still almost as much as the ones I found. But keep the ideas coming I've still got another day before I need to order (today or Sunday makes no difference in terms of shipping)

Cost wasn't the primary reason I mentioned it, though it did sound like it in hind sight. I like the ones I mentioned for simple HD cooling because of the 3 small fans to cool each HD. Loose a fan and two still running... a minor form of cooling redundancy vs the 3in2 HD cage you mentioned of 1 fan to cool 3 HDs. Three HDs at risk if 1 fan fails! Since EVERYTHING computer related will fail sooner or later I like to guard against disaster as much as possible.

[stanger89]

Right now I'm trying to balance between noise and cooling. 24 tiny little fans aren't something I want sitting next to me at my desk

[mdmint]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Right now I'm trying to balance between noise and cooling. 24 tiny little fans aren't something I want sitting next to me at my desk

Quiet? No, wasn't a consideration building a Sage Server for me. Yeah, sitting under my desk is my Sage Server with 8 WD2500 HDs with 6 fans in their two cages, dual redundant PS with three fans, CPU fan, two back 80mm fans and case side 120mm (blowing on 4xPVR250s). In back of desk 120mm AC exhaust fan. Next to desk my main workstation with only 6 fans total and 2 WD2500 HDs at the moment. Does sound like a small computer room! In reality those 3 little 40mm fans are relatively quiet in comparison!

[mikesm]

First off, if you are trying to build a very quiet RAID-5 fileserver, I think you are in for trouble. Lots of 7200 RPM drives generate heat, and you will have to get rid of that heat well if you want those drives to last. That is going to generate some noise.

The good news is that you don't have to have this machine run the Sage softare at all. Stick it on the end of a Gigabit ethernet port in some room where ther thermals are OK and the noise doesn't matter. Put a good UPS on it too, and you'll be fine. Have Sage deal with the fileserver via a network share, and it'll work fine. It even simplifies volume management since you can export one share and do the volume management on the server.

For a good case, I think there is none better for this purpose than the coolermaster Stacker case, the STC-101. Here's a good review here. Each group of 4 drives has it's own cooling fan, and this will keep the drives cool, and let you go up to 12 drives in the system. I would not do more than 6 drives in one RAID 5 array - if you need more space than that, use Raid 50 to stripe 2 RAID5 arrays together. That way you can lose one drive in each array and still keep on going.

CPU isn't an issue, but I/O is. I would use am Intel 875 MB with the gigabit ethernet interface that doesn't go though the PCI bus, or a Intel or AMD PCI-Express board. With PCI-E you have a lot of backplane bandwidth, so you can load up I/O cards with SATA ports and not worry about bus utilization issues.

I would pay the extra money and use SATA drives - no issues with master/slave problems on the IDE bus, and the cabling is WAY neater, which translates to better airflow and thermal performance, and ease of swapping out drive components. It's not that much more money and I think is well worth it. If you get drives with NCQ, you'll get evern better performance, though you won't be stressing out the system with HTPC use.

At a minimum, do not use drives from the same lot for the array. They tend to fail at the same time (bad news!). Best is to use different drives from different manufacturers. The goal isn't the drive with the longest MTBF, but different MTBFs so they fail at different times. Depending on what RAID software you are using, you can may be able to have a spare drive online that can be used to automatically rebuild the array in case of a drive failure. That's a nice touch.

Personally, if you are good with Linux, I think you will not find better performance and flexibility than using a software RAID5 or RAID50 under Linux. It gives you lots of flexibility - excellent speed, and the ability to support mutiple protocols for access to the arrays (NFS, SMB, WEBDAV, HTTP, etc...), but if you aren't well versed in Linux, you should stay away from this and use 3ware or other good hardware on Windows. Windows software RAID5 isn't very good, though it's supposed to be better on windows server 2003 than with a hacked WinXP.

Thanks,
Mike

[stanger89]

FWIW

Originally Posted by mikesm

First off, if you are trying to build a very quiet RAID-5 fileserver, I think you are in for trouble. Lots of 7200 RPM drives generate heat, and you will have to get rid of that heat well if you want those drives to last. That is going to generate some noise.

I'm not going for "very quiet" I'm aiming for tollerable. Basically that means no Deltas, and probably mostly Panaflo L1As, hopefully controlled by a T-Balancer so that I use just enough fan to keep things happy.

The good news is that you don't have to have this machine run the Sage softare at all. Stick it on the end of a Gigabit ethernet port in some room where ther thermals are OK and the noise doesn't matter. Put a good UPS on it too, and you'll be fine. Have Sage deal with the fileserver via a network share, and it'll work fine. It even simplifies volume management since you can export one share and do the volume management on the server.

This isn't going in my Sage box, although it could become my Sage Server. It's going in my "workstation" not my HTPC, it will be in a different room.

For a good case, I think there is none better for this purpose than the coolermaster Stacker case, the STC-101. Here's a good review here. Each group of 4 drives has it's own cooling fan, and this will keep the drives cool, and let you go up to 12 drives in the system.

It's all going in this case:
https://www.casedepot.com/proddetail.asp?linenumber=78

Well roughly, mine is painted gray, and is actually the case that was used in the MaximumPC Alienware dream machine a few years back.

10-bay, with an extra 5.25 in the bottom, and room for redundant power supplies (although I only have the backplate for a single, and only intend to use 1).

I would pay the extra money and use SATA drives - no issues with master/slave problems on the IDE bus, and the cabling is WAY neater, which translates to better airflow and thermal performance, and ease of swapping out drive components. It's not that much more money and I think is well worth it. If you get drives with NCQ, you'll get evern better performance, though you won't be stressing out the system with HTPC use.

It actually would have been significantly more to go SATA, about $300 more or so.

At a minimum, do not use drives from the same lot for the array. They tend to fail at the same time (bad news!). Best is to use different drives from different manufacturers. The goal isn't the drive with the longest MTBF, but different MTBFs so they fail at different times. Depending on what RAID software you are using, you can may be able to have a spare drive online that can be used to automatically rebuild the array in case of a drive failure. That's a nice touch.

I've been debating about setting up a hot spare, not sure if the space sacrifice is worth the extra security. I'll probably just configure it to power off and email me if a drive fails.

Personally, if you are good with Linux, I think you will not find better performance and flexibility than using a software RAID5 or RAID50 under Linux. It gives you lots of flexibility - excellent speed, and the ability to support mutiple protocols for access to the arrays (NFS, SMB, WEBDAV, HTTP, etc...), but if you aren't well versed in Linux, you should stay away from this and use 3ware or other good hardware on Windows. Windows software RAID5 isn't very good, though it's supposed to be better on windows server 2003 than with a hacked WinXP.

3ware all the way baby!

[bluenote]

Never ever ever go software RAID. You're better off without protection at all than going software RAID IMHO. I know that sounds funny, but I've personally run into a lot of issues using s/w RAID.

Cory

[mdmint]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I've been debating about setting up a hot spare, not sure if the space sacrifice is worth the extra security. I'll probably just configure it to power off and email me if a drive fails.
3ware all the way baby!

Configure it to power off if a drive fails and RAID set looses redundancy? What controller do you have that has that as an option? I've never seen that as a RAID controller option, which makes sense to me since the design is to keep systems up! You could maybe trap a SNMP alert and trigger a shutdown program but IRRC, and just checked my 9500S, 3ware doesn't support SNMP and the 3DM util does not have shutting down as any error option. You definitely can configure for email notifications of course.

[stanger89]

Well, it's been a long time since I've played with 3DM, I thought it had the option to shutdown the PC, but maybe I was mistaked. Guess I'll find out when my drive cages get here.

[edbmdave]

Can someone explain to me why having the SageTV server running on a machine with a raid5 for its storage is bad? I can't see that it would be a big difference this way verses having the network IO + clients connecting if I was connecting to the RAID5 as a shared volume elsewhere. It would seem to be better to allow the server to write natively to the raid 5 array verses over a network. I would also thiink this would aid in support a larger number of concurrent recordings. I was thinking I would have a box with 2 PVR-500s and 1 PVR-250 (So 5 concurrent). The 500s would record anything from standard cable, the 250 would be tied to a digital cable box and record the digital channels via SVideo. All on a machine with 1GB Ram, and a AMD 2600. I would think this would be a good thing.

Thoughts??

[korben_dallas]

The two things I'd be concerned about:

1. Is the server also a client? Meaning, will you be using that box for viewings. If so, a loud hot obnoxious server with many noisy drives and fans won't be very living room friendly.
2. Are you sticking to Windows-only? Linux is free and doesn't have much overhead. Heck, you can even install and run everything from the command line. A Linux box dedicated to storage is a great setup, just stick it in some closet somewhere, run a CAT5 cable to it, and forget about it.

[dvd_maniac]

I have raid-0 arrays in my htpc. One is on board sata 2x160GB and other is promise fastrak tx2 2x250GB. I also have a couple 250's hooked up to primary ide. I have been reading through this thread and have wondered why I haven't gone with raid-5 yet. I have 5 WD 250GB 7200rpm 8mb cache h/d's.
I am thinking it would make sense to get a new case and hook it up as a file server.
I too want to seve my DVD's VOD style. I have over 1000 of them though. So I am going to have to do some serious compressing. I have settled on Nero Digital MP4, wish that Sage would play H.264. Each movie comes out to be around 700MB and is decent quality.
My question is, and I ask it here because people seem to do alot of network with Sage, does the CLient play MP4 if the client has the right codecs installed? Does Sage see Mapped drives the same as internal drives?