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  #41  
Old 10-25-2013, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Skirge01 View Post
I have tRAID installed on a VM of Windows 7 Pro 64-bit, which I use for server duties (backups, torrents, FTP, etc). You definitely do not need a dedicated machine.
Do I really need a VM? I have yet to learn anything about it, and given my backlog of stuff to-do and to-learn, i'd really rather not add on to that list.
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  #42  
Old 10-25-2013, 01:14 PM
BobPhoenix BobPhoenix is offline
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Originally Posted by IVB View Post
Do I really need a VM? I have yet to learn anything about it, and given my backlog of stuff to-do and to-learn, i'd really rather not add on to that list.
A VM is just like a dedicated machine. Based on his last sentence I would say no you do not need a VM either. He was just explaining his usage.
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  #43  
Old 10-25-2013, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by IVB View Post
Do I really need a VM? I have yet to learn anything about it, and given my backlog of stuff to-do and to-learn, i'd really rather not add on to that list.
Oh no, not at all! I was just pointing out the way I run it. That's one of 4 VMs on the single server I have in my house.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobPhoenix
I know Skirge01 is currently testing/using tRAID because of posts on the FlexRaid forums about his performance when SageTV was recording directly to the pool.
Not sure if you saw the most recent exchange over there, but I nearly lost it.
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  #44  
Old 10-25-2013, 01:20 PM
BobPhoenix BobPhoenix is offline
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Originally Posted by Skirge01 View Post
Not sure if you saw the most recent exchange over there, but I nearly lost it.
I probably missed some of it because I try to skip past all the RTFM/RTFW posts that usually appear when questions are asked that are not really explained in the wiki as completely as needed (for my specific instance anyway - just haven't asked them yet because I've been waiting for all the bug reports to subside first).
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  #45  
Old 10-25-2013, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Skirge01 View Post
Not sure if you saw the most recent exchange over there, but I nearly lost it.
Just registered, looked through all your old posts. (Its not stalking if I tell you )

So...you've got a lot of posts in the bug report thread, plus a bunch of general stuff. I literally did a 20 second scan, just to get a flavor. I have not spent ANY time scanning those forums.

How much time did it take you to get this up to speed & running? I ask because the nice thing about the RocketRaid is that I can just go buy 5 4TB disks and walk away.

But as I type this, I realize that card is now 6-7 years old, and even if I don't suffer a multi-disk failure, the card itself could fail. Which would suck. So perhaps a plan B is a good thing. I wouldn't mind spending some time to get this set up, but I'm hoping its closer to SageTV learning curve, and not CQC learning curve (aka, weeks & weeks)
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  #46  
Old 10-25-2013, 05:19 PM
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I'll be honest. I've looked over so many of the various NAS/RAID/RAIDish solutions, and just have not found a compelling reason to use any of them. I've got 6 drives right now, with recordings and imports spread across them. Performance is great. Sage seamlessly integrates the various locations to one. It all 'just works'.
I do the same thing, and all my data is backed up with a redundant copy.
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  #47  
Old 10-26-2013, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by IVB View Post
Just registered, looked through all your old posts. (Its not stalking if I tell you )

So...you've got a lot of posts in the bug report thread, plus a bunch of general stuff. I literally did a 20 second scan, just to get a flavor. I have not spent ANY time scanning those forums.

How much time did it take you to get this up to speed & running? I ask because the nice thing about the RocketRaid is that I can just go buy 5 4TB disks and walk away.

But as I type this, I realize that card is now 6-7 years old, and even if I don't suffer a multi-disk failure, the card itself could fail. Which would suck. So perhaps a plan B is a good thing. I wouldn't mind spending some time to get this set up, but I'm hoping its closer to SageTV learning curve, and not CQC learning curve (aka, weeks & weeks)
Make sure to only focus on my posts in the tRAID threads as I'm no longer using RAID-F. It took me an hour or so to get everything set up with tRAID and that included closely following all the instructions to the letter and re-reading numerous times to ensure I did things right. (I still messed some things up, of course.) I was pleasantly surprised at just how easy it was. Now, that "hour or so" does not include the 10+ hours it took for tRAID to compute the parity on my server's--somewhat large--array. But, you don't need to babysit that.

Quite honestly, there's zero learning curve on tRAID. You primarily need to understand what DRU, PPU, Verify, Verify+, and Verify Sync is, as well as how to swap out a failing disk and then restore it.

I am still having issues recording to the array, but I haven't had time to try out the latest build to see if that resolves it. While I love the software and I'm confident the developer will help me track down and fix any issues, I think the "customer service" needs improvement. If the software was free, it would be different.
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  #48  
Old 10-26-2013, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Skirge01 View Post
I am still having issues recording to the array, but I haven't had time to try out the latest build to see if that resolves it.
Thanks for the reply. By the above, do you mean you cannot get SageTV to record TV to the array? That'd be a fatal flaw for me, as the whole point of my rebuild is to generate 12TB of space for Sage.
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  #49  
Old 10-26-2013, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by IVB View Post
Thanks for the reply. By the above, do you mean you cannot get SageTV to record TV to the array? That'd be a fatal flaw for me, as the whole point of my rebuild is to generate 12TB of space for Sage.
With my setup, that's correct. However, that doesn't mean that you wouldn't be able to. I've been having issues with my setup for a while now (before tRAID), so everything could work just fine in your scenario.
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  #50  
Old 10-26-2013, 09:22 PM
reggie14 reggie14 is offline
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I wouldn't expect recording to a tRAID or unRAID array would work terribly well. You pay a pretty significant performance penalty on writes. I don't know exactly how tRAID works, but I would think any non-striping RAID would be somewhat similar to unRAID. For each write, you're going to have to read what was previously there, read what's in the corresponding parity location, then write to both locations.

I would thinking with multiple read/write streams at once would be too much for the array. Imagine 3 simultaneous recordings, 2 playback streams, and possibly one or two comskip processes running.

Maybe I've just had extraordinarily good luck with hard drives, but in 13 years I've only had two drives fail, only one of which actually led to data loss (I was able to pull data off the other failing drive). I've preemptively replaced a couple others when they started acting a bit weird or made weird noises.

With that history, I'm not overly concerned about losing my recording drives. If one fails I'd be a little annoyed, but I wouldn't care that much. I'd be more annoyed if I lost things like DVD/blu-ray rips, especially since some of that stuff I reencoded in Handbrake, but even that wouldn't be a huge deal if I lost a drive. I do store that stuff on an unRAID array, though, to provide some protection against failures.

So, I just keep my recording drives separate. I also configured Sage to use the "bandwidth" recording option, so that it records shows onto different drives. That seemed to help moved my server onto a machine that ran comskip much faster.
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  #51  
Old 10-27-2013, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by reggie14 View Post
I wouldn't expect recording to a tRAID or unRAID array would work terribly well. You pay a pretty significant performance penalty on writes. I don't know exactly how tRAID works, but I would think any non-striping RAID would be somewhat similar to unRAID. For each write, you're going to have to read what was previously there, read what's in the corresponding parity location, then write to both locations.

I would thinking with multiple read/write streams at once would be too much for the array. Imagine 3 simultaneous recordings, 2 playback streams, and possibly one or two comskip processes running.

Maybe I've just had extraordinarily good luck with hard drives, but in 13 years I've only had two drives fail, only one of which actually led to data loss (I was able to pull data off the other failing drive). I've preemptively replaced a couple others when they started acting a bit weird or made weird noises.

With that history, I'm not overly concerned about losing my recording drives. If one fails I'd be a little annoyed, but I wouldn't care that much. I'd be more annoyed if I lost things like DVD/blu-ray rips, especially since some of that stuff I reencoded in Handbrake, but even that wouldn't be a huge deal if I lost a drive. I do store that stuff on an unRAID array, though, to provide some protection against failures.

So, I just keep my recording drives separate. I also configured Sage to use the "bandwidth" recording option, so that it records shows onto different drives. That seemed to help moved my server onto a machine that ran comskip much faster.
I would have agreed with this many years ago, but as drives are SO much faster now, and most our servers have plenty of CPU power sitting unused to do the parity writes, as well as a LOT more RAM to use for write caching, I don't think it's as much a concern as it once was. I wouldnt' be surprised it tRAID could keep up with 3-5 HD streams on a 4 drive array. Keep in mind, there IS a level of striping going on, as long as the parity calcs can keep up, it shouldn't be any slower than individual dives. That said, of course, as mentioned above, I don't feel a need to 'protect' my recordings...
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  #52  
Old 10-27-2013, 12:45 AM
reggie14 reggie14 is offline
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Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
I would have agreed with this many years ago, but as drives are SO much faster now, and most our servers have plenty of CPU power sitting unused to do the parity writes, as well as a LOT more RAM to use for write caching, I don't think it's as much a concern as it once was.
The problem isn't the CPU- old CPUs had plenty of power for do parity calculations. The problem is seek time, which is exacerbated by the nature of these RAID4-like systems.

For me, the increased CPU speed was a problem when comskip was running. I was having trouble with playback for a while when too many things were running off one drive (comskip, a couple recordings, and a couple playback streams).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
I wouldnt' be surprised it tRAID could keep up with 3-5 HD streams on a 4 drive array. Keep in mind, there IS a level of striping going on, as long as the parity calcs can keep up, it shouldn't be any slower than individual dives. That said, of course, as mentioned above, I don't feel a need to 'protect' my recordings...
The benchmarks over on the tRAID forums seem to suggest write speeds of about 40-50MBytes/sec. unRAID speeds, in near ideal cases, top out around 40MB/sec. My system hits that most of the time. If I try writing two streams, overall performance is usually just a bit over 30MB/sec.

All this intuitively makes sense. 40-50MB/sec is about half speed for modern hard drives. That performance hit makes sense, though, since for each logical write to the drive you have to do a read and a write (actually, you have to do two reads and two writes, though each pair are done mostly in parallel on different drives).

I'm not sure what you mean when you say tRAID has some striping. I thought it worked very similarly to unRAID- files are written to individual drives, and there's a dedicated parity drive. In this case, the parity drive is going to be seeking like mad when you have multiple writes going on. I don't see why you think you'd get near native performance.
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  #53  
Old 10-27-2013, 03:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reggie14 View Post
The problem isn't the CPU- old CPUs had plenty of power for do parity calculations. The problem is seek time, which is exacerbated by the nature of these RAID4-like systems.

For me, the increased CPU speed was a problem when comskip was running. I was having trouble with playback for a while when too many things were running off one drive (comskip, a couple recordings, and a couple playback streams).



The benchmarks over on the tRAID forums seem to suggest write speeds of about 40-50MBytes/sec. unRAID speeds, in near ideal cases, top out around 40MB/sec. My system hits that most of the time. If I try writing two streams, overall performance is usually just a bit over 30MB/sec.

All this intuitively makes sense. 40-50MB/sec is about half speed for modern hard drives. That performance hit makes sense, though, since for each logical write to the drive you have to do a read and a write (actually, you have to do two reads and two writes, though each pair are done mostly in parallel on different drives).

I'm not sure what you mean when you say tRAID has some striping. I thought it worked very similarly to unRAID- files are written to individual drives, and there's a dedicated parity drive. In this case, the parity drive is going to be seeking like mad when you have multiple writes going on. I don't see why you think you'd get near native performance.
I had thought I read somewhere that tRAID would do lazy parity calcs, meaning the actual speed while writing doesn't have to be limited by the parity store. Yes, this hurts fault recoverability immediacy, but a decent trade-off if I understand it correctly.

As for the 'striping' I had talked about, I wasn't meaning traditional striping, I was referring to tRAID's transparent nature. The data drives (DRU) are not pooled, they are left as natively accessed drives. tRAID simply reads those as they are written, and stores parity information on the PPU's. This leaves you with the ability to still reference the DRU's individually, so you can still use sage's 'Bandwidth' mode, and spread recordngs across drives. yes, the PPU's would still be thrashing about, but that should not limit write speed.
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  #54  
Old 10-27-2013, 10:24 AM
reggie14 reggie14 is offline
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I'm pretty sure tRAID calculates and writes parity in real-time. You might be thinking of the older, related product, FlexRAID (which I think is now referred to as Snapshop RAID). I could be wrong, though. I can't keep all the different versions straight.

If parity is written in real-time, I think you might end up with worse performance by writing to different drives than writing to the same one. At least if you're writing to a single drive it will tend to write the streams roughly sequentially on the drive. If you're writing to two different drives, the writes will be in completely different areas of the drives, making the parity drive work very hard to keep up.

Maybe it would still make sense if you think you're going to have lots of reads as you write.
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  #55  
Old 10-27-2013, 01:28 PM
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So I guess the thing I need to look for is whether anyone is actually writing to a tRaid system with multiple concurrent HD streams. For whatever reason, I never had an issue with my RocketRaid doing 2 HD OTA and 1 HDPVR stream at once, although the above dialogue seems to indicate that I should have had issues since the limitation would be the disks.
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  #56  
Old 10-27-2013, 02:18 PM
reggie14 reggie14 is offline
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For whatever reason, I never had an issue with my RocketRaid doing 2 HD OTA and 1 HDPVR stream at once, although the above dialogue seems to indicate that I should have had issues since the limitation would be the disks.
Not quite. Let me try to explain.

The short answer is that you may a pretty significant write performance penalty when you use tRAID or unRAID. That penalty doesn't apply to traditional RAID setups, like a RAID 0/1/5.

It sounds like you were previously using a RAID 5 array. In that case, writes (and reads) are basically split across all the drives in the array equally (including parity writes). Since these operations are done in parallel, you can end with with better performance than with a single drive.

I said "can" because RAID5 will also suffer from a write performance penalty for small writes. It's pretty similar to the problem with unRAID and tRAID- in order to write to one drive, you need to read from the others. We're mostly talking about sequential writes, where this isn't as much of a problem. For our use case, I would expect write performance in a RAID5 would be better than that for a single drive.

The bottleneck in tRAID/unRAID setups is the parity drive. Every write operation to a data drive results in a read and a write on the parity drive. Intuitively, it should be fairly clear that the overall write performance to the array can't exceed about half the speed of the parity drive.

I would think recording to a RAID5 would work fine. But I'm still skeptical about using something like unRAID/tRAID for recordings. I think I remember seeing posts from people using unRAID, so you can get away with it if your I/O demands aren't too high, but performance is going to be worse than than native performance.
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  #57  
Old 10-28-2013, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by IVB View Post
So I guess the thing I need to look for is whether anyone is actually writing to a tRaid system with multiple concurrent HD streams. For whatever reason, I never had an issue with my RocketRaid doing 2 HD OTA and 1 HDPVR stream at once, although the above dialogue seems to indicate that I should have had issues since the limitation would be the disks.
Hi
I think I pointed you over to flexraid on google+.

I don't directly record to my flexraid pool. I use an old SSD drive I had sitting around. Then every few days I move all the files to my flexraid pool and restart SageTV. I like this for a few reasons.

1.) I can record and even scan all my inputs at the same time. i.e. 2 hd homeruns, and run comskip on them. (i.e. no head thrashing).
2.) I assume it keeps all the completed shows on the same drive, or close to the same drive as possible in flexraid. (based on other advice for items such as sabnzb I found on the flexraid forum).
3.) Restart seems to keep things moving quickly. i.e. clears up garbage collection for Java.
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  #58  
Old 10-28-2013, 08:52 AM
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Hi
I think I pointed you over to flexraid on google+.

I don't directly record to my flexraid pool. I use an old SSD drive I had sitting around. Then every few days I move all the files to my flexraid pool and restart SageTV.
If I recall, you need to modify your WizBin if you change the drive letter something is recorded on, is that correct? What other steps do you need to do during that move?
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  #59  
Old 10-28-2013, 09:00 AM
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If you move a file in sage, all it takes is performing a re-scan of the import folders. Sage will see the file in the new location, recognize it as the same file, adding it to the database at that location, and will also see it disappear from the old location, so it will remove that entry. The only time you end up with problems, is if the old file's location no longer exists (meaning the folder itself is gone). If that happens, then sage will NOT remove it from the database, instead leaving it there thinking a drive has been removed or something.
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  #60  
Old 10-28-2013, 09:00 AM
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If I recall, you need to modify your WizBin if you change the drive letter something is recorded on, is that correct? What other steps do you need to do during that move?
and there is NEVER a reason to 'modify your wiz.bin'. That is asking for problems.
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