"Sage" at CES?

[freewheeling]

Originally Posted by phareous

Well seeing how Jeff said it was not dead, then I would have to think we should have some hope. I think Jeff knows what we would interpret 'dead' to mean

I'd be a lot more sanguine if there was some way to get SageTV to work with my new HDHR Prime. But I've literally tried everything with SageDCT, and about all I can say is that I recorded about 3/4ths of one HD show before it quit working. It works OK as a QAM tuner (or 2/3rds OK anyway) but I don't really need another QAM tuner.

I've invested in off-brand products from time to time because they looked to have a lot of utility, but most of them have come to naught. They're sort of like political third parties. At best, the most they can do is influence the majors a little.

I like the Sage product, but about all I can do is play back the recordings I make in WMC *after* converting them. I can't even play the wtv files directly. Ah well, the woes of living in the First World...

[Skybolt]

Originally Posted by maceie

I used HTTrack and just told it to get the forum URL.
It grabbed 440Mb (which isn't all of it) but a large amount of the posts/links are there.
It dumps a copy to a local drive and you can just view it using any web browser. ...

A Bit off topic but,

I decided to give this a try this weekend, 28hrs and 5.8 GB later it's still going strong ... No Idea when it will stop ...

EDIT: Well it stopped when it hit 100K ulr's and actually ended up being 1.6GB and 35 hrs. Prior to exiting the program the disk space was 7.8GB. and after it exited it was the 1.6 GB. A lot of cacheing I guess. Cool test though.

[tke743]

Originally Posted by Narflex

I still work on SageTV every day along with the whole team from SageTV before it was bought. SageTV is not dead. Ohhh....I wish I could say more...but that time has not come yet....

Funny how a simple little note like this sets the world (in here) on fire and brings a tear to our eye. Long live SageTV!!

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by freewheeling

I'd be a lot more sanguine if there was some way to get SageTV to work with my new HDHR Prime. But I've literally tried everything with SageDCT, and about all I can say is that I recorded about 3/4ths of one HD show before it quit working. It works OK as a QAM tuner (or 2/3rds OK anyway) but I don't really need another QAM tuner.

Not to be too unsympathetic, but you should have known going in that you were taking things into your own hands trying to get CableCard working in Sage, it's a crapshoot.

Sage never officially supported CableCard nor did they ever announce plans to, so it's not even like it's "half done" and got squashed in the acquisition.

[cslatt]

Originally Posted by freewheeling

I'd be a lot more sanguine if there was some way to get SageTV to work with my new HDHR Prime. But I've literally tried everything with SageDCT, and about all I can say is that I recorded about 3/4ths of one HD show before it quit working. It works OK as a QAM tuner (or 2/3rds OK anyway) but I don't really need another QAM tuner.

I know this isn't terribly helpful, but my HDHR Prime has worked flawlessly with SageDCT from day 1. Never missed even the tiniest piece of any recording ever. It can be done. That said, I have a pretty ideal network setup and it sounds like network quality is a huge factor in SageDCT reliability - all wired, prosumer level gigabit switch, all my bits and pieces are located in the same rack with the switch.

[freewheeling]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Not to be too unsympathetic, but you should have known going in that you were taking things into your own hands trying to get CableCard working in Sage, it's a crapshoot.

Sage never officially supported CableCard nor did they ever announce plans to, so it's not even like it's "half done" and got squashed in the acquisition.

That's really sort of an odd argument. I don't think the cable card devices were even available until after Sage was sold to Google, so you're arguing that it was already obsolete and I should've known that. One would assume that as QAM gets elbowed out and the HDPVR and Colossus get superseded by more powerful solutions that aren't dependent on the cable box Sage would have either developed the capability (quickly) or become obsolete.

But with anything you buy you run the risk that it'll be made obsolete or fail to perform in the market.

[flavius]

^That's babgvant's first release, a year ago.
http://babgvant.com/blogs/andyvt/arc...c-release.aspx

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by freewheeling

That's really sort of an odd argument. I don't think the cable card devices were even available until after Sage was sold to Google, so you're arguing that it was already obsolete and I should've known that. One would assume that as QAM gets elbowed out and the HDPVR and Colossus get superseded by more powerful solutions that aren't dependent on the cable box Sage would have either developed the capability (quickly) or become obsolete.

But with anything you buy you run the risk that it'll be made obsolete or fail to perform in the market.

ATI released their first cable-card tuners in 2007, many years before Sage sold out to google. Sage made it very clear at that time that they had no intention of supporting a closed DRM saddled solution, as it would fundamentally break many of the features that make sagetv great (comskip, placeshifter, built-in conversion, extender playback, etc). They even became founding members of the AllVid alliance to promote a more open platform, that wouldn't be tied to expensive certification by a closed entity with it's own interests in seeing the platform fail.

[freewheeling]

Sorry, I didn't catch the very beginning of this story. Just saw it and grabbed it.

Shep Smith on Google's Plans

[freewheeling]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

ATI released their first cable-card tuners in 2007, many years before Sage sold out to google. Sage made it very clear at that time that they had no intention of supporting a closed DRM saddled solution, as it would fundamentally break many of the features that make sagetv great (comskip, placeshifter, built-in conversion, extender playback, etc). They even became founding members of the AllVid alliance to promote a more open platform, that wouldn't be tied to expensive certification by a closed entity with it's own interests in seeing the platform fail.

But the new cable card self install rules mandated by congress took effect on August 8, 2011 just before Google bought SageTV. This is what inspired the devices that came out at the end of last year that don't have those limitations, or at least not as severe (assuming shows are tagged "copy freely"). And I'm going to bet that the Google version of Sage *will* support these devices. They could hardly afford not to.

BTW, I did ultimately get the Prime to work with SageDCT. I had to use a wireless extender and then connect the server computer and the prime directly to the ethernet ports on the extender. (I found that I could use my Airport Extreme Base Station as an extender for the Linksys router that was set up as the primary already. So I didn't even have to buy an extender.)

[ybrew]

Originally Posted by freewheeling

Sorry, I didn't catch the very beginning of this story. Just saw it and grabbed it.

Shep Smith on Google's Plans

Interesting. That'd be my bet as to what Jeff's up to.

[Fuzzy]

The copy freely being recorded without DRM had nothing to do with the cablecard devices like the Prime. Those devices were built for 7MC, which functions just fine even if everything is DRM protected. Self install was a completely different matter, and was a response to the very large number of complaints the FCC received regarding poor support from cable companies.

[ptoal]

Originally Posted by Narflex

I still work on SageTV every day along with the whole team from SageTV before it was bought. SageTV is not dead. Ohhh....I wish I could say more...but that time has not come yet....

Well this gives me some hope. I've used Sage for years and there's nothing that comes close to it. I don't think I could put up with a DVR from my local cable-co.

I'm sure that the SageTV user-base isn't big enough to attract Google's attention, but I still have hope that they won't totally abandon us when they finally launch whatever it is that they are planning.

-PT

[korben_dallas]

Originally Posted by ptoal

they won't totally abandon us when they finally launch whatever it is that they are planning.

It may come down to an amount of money. Will there be an upgrade path? A grandfather clause? How much of what we have will be usable in this new Google project? If it means a total new software and/or hardware purchase, then how does that compare to a WMC7 setup and/or the new Ceton devices? Jeff was all about freedom in SageTV. Will that translate?

I am ok for this year (w/ the EPG), but I cannot expand my system, and that is a tough limitation. That and potentially more money may question my 7+ year loyalty to SageTV.

[stanger89]

I personally don't care about cost (within reason) it's the functionality that's important to me. If the functionality matches/betters SageTV, I'll be happy to pay an upgrade or even full price.

[reggie14]

Assuming Google does release something someday, I really don't expect much of an upgrade path from my current Sage system. That is, I suspect my current extenders would be useless, and that I'd probably need to get GoogleTV boxes at each TV. I'd expect any necessary software would be free.

I really don't have a good feel for how the back-end system would likely be implemented, so I don't know it my current tuners would be useful. But, I'd expect any Google-backed DVR solution would support CableCard, and I'd swap out my HD-PVRs for CableCard in a heartbeat (assuming reasonable prices).

But, I'm also not expecting Google to come out with anything before I feel inclined to move on to something different. Like probably many of you, I think the proposed Ceton boxes are looking pretty interesting right now. If those come out before the fall season begins, and if they can play blu-rays ripped to MKV (and, if we're really lucky, DVD folder structures), I'll probably jump ship then. Maybe I'd hang around a little longer if Google announces a product and release date, but I'm not going to sit around indefinitely.

[mkanet]

Remember, that even up until just recently Jeff refers to what he's working every day as "SageTV". I don't think he would feel comfortable calling it sageTV if it were significantly different than what we identify sageTV as. So, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that whatever that will be released will still have the same basic core server->client system; allowing studio based plugins and backwards compatibility with older extenders.

Originally Posted by reggie14

Assuming Google does release something someday, I really don't expect much of an upgrade path from my current Sage system. That is, I suspect my current extenders would be useless, and that I'd probably need to get GoogleTV boxes at each TV. I'd expect any necessary software would be free.

I really don't have a good feel for how the back-end system would likely be implemented, so I don't know it my current tuners would be useful. But, I'd expect any Google-backed DVR solution would support CableCard, and I'd swap out my HD-PVRs for CableCard in a heartbeat (assuming reasonable prices).

But, I'm also not expecting Google to come out with anything before I feel inclined to move on to something different. Like probably many of you, I think the proposed Ceton boxes are looking pretty interesting right now. If those come out before the fall season begins, and if they can play blu-rays ripped to MKV (and, if we're really lucky, DVD folder structures), I'll probably jump ship then. Maybe I'd hang around a little longer if Google announces a product and release date, but I'm not going to sit around indefinitely.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by mkanet

Remember, that even up until just recently Jeff refers to what he's working every day as "SageTV". I don't think he would feel comfortable calling it sageTV if it were significantly different than what we identify sageTV as. So, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that whatever that will be released will still have the same basic core server->client system; allowing studio based plugins and backwards compatibility with older extenders.

I don't know... if I were Jeff I think I'd have a pretty easy time referring to working on whatever came out of the SageTV codebase as "working on SageTV." Sure, that implies some level of backward compatibility is out of the question, I just really don't expect it.

About the only thing I think is a "given" is it being a client-server DVR (though, I think I can imagine alternatives to even that). I think Google might be prepared to trade off just about everything else. I can't imagine a company Google-sized would be interested in something as niche as SageTV was. So, I assume they're going to make appropriate and necessary changes to make it more suitable for the mass market. That might necessitate some major changes.

[Dargason]

I imagine it will be something very similar to SageTV today, except that the SageTV server and wiz.bin will be at Google and we'll all basically be running placeshifted extenders. A local server for personal media will be an option (probably a free option, though.) You would get content by 'buying' it or through subscription services and it would go into your 'private' archive and you could stream it whenever you feel like it.

The benefit to the casual user is simplicity... only one simple box to install (per TV). And it might even be cheaper if you can drop some of your existing television services. And with all that data, google could probably do a really excellent job of intelligent suggestions.

Google and content providers would love it because they could insert targeted commercials and know when they are watched (what I mean here is they know you aren't recording it on your dvr and will watch it the day after the big sale).

I'm just not sure how they would handle local broadcasts... maybe the box would have a cable-card tuner and some local DVR capability as well.

The technology for all this already exists... it's just a mash-up of stuff that netflix/hulu, amazon (books, mp3), and itunes are already doing. And SageTV has all the basic pieces already.

[wayner]

Your idea is a good one. If is similar to the virtual PVR service offered by Cablevision - they were sued by the media companies but they won. You can bet that this legal battle is not over.

Another issue could be the amount of bandwidth that this service would use. I believe that Netflix's HD quality videos use about 5Mbps - that's about 2.25GBph (gigabytes per hour). That causes two problems - you could only watch two shows at once with a 10Mbps web service and that is likely pushing it. If you wanted to watch HD shows on 4 TVs at once then you are going to need a 25Mbps download speed. Many people have that but many don't - and maybe many don't have four TVs but some people do. The second problem is that if your TV consumption is 4 hours/day on 2 TVs then that is 240 hours per month. Assuming that it is all HD means that you will be using 540GB/month which may cause your ISP to cap your bandwidth. And this will also open up the whole net neutrality debate in a big way.

One other issue - here in Canada we are about to get our own version of the DMCA. One of the provisions of this bill is that it forbids permanent archiving of TV Shows. Here is the exact quote from the bill:

(d) the individual keeps the recording no longer than is reasonably necessary in order to listen to or view the program at a more convenient time;

Presumably everyone will ignore this law with their own DVRs but a company like Google would have to follow the law on this issue.