HDHomeRun (HDHR) Prime + SageDCT

[freewheeling]

Originally Posted by babgvant

It's still WiFi.

It's WIFI, but:

1. None of the other tuner softwares have a problem with the WIFI, including WMC.
2. Even using SageTV I recorded using all three tuners at the same time, so it's not an issue of WIFI bandwidth. It's something unique to SageDCT.
3. What's with the enormous verbose log, and why isn't it logging while it's recording now? If SageDCT uses a less efficient way of interacting with the cable card tuners, why wasn't that a problem for two hours yesterday? Something changed suddenly.

At the moment I'm using the QAM tuner 2 in SageTV and cable card tuners 0 and 1 in Windows Media Center. I don't have any dropped tuners or de-pixelation.

I don't think the signal strength has anything to do with it either. I can change the station to one that has higher signal strength, or lower, and it still works on WMC and doesn't work on SageDCT. I'm sorry I don't have logs to share. I don't know what's going on with that.

[phelme]

Originally Posted by freewheeling

I don't think the signal strength has anything to do with it either. I can change the station to one that has higher signal strength, or lower, and it still works on WMC and doesn't work on SageDCT. I'm sorry I don't have logs to share. I don't know what's going on with that.

How is the CPU load while recording with SageDCT? If it ever gets too "stressed" you'll start dropping packets.

Also, what are your buffer sizes set to?

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by freewheeling

It's WIFI, but:

1. None of the other tuner softwares have a problem with the WIFI, including WMC.
2. Even using SageTV I recorded using all three tuners at the same time, so it's not an issue of WIFI bandwidth. It's something unique to SageDCT.
3. What's with the enormous verbose log, and why isn't it logging while it's recording now? If SageDCT uses a less efficient way of interacting with the cable card tuners, why wasn't that a problem for two hours yesterday? Something changed suddenly.

At the moment I'm using the QAM tuner 2 in SageTV and cable card tuners 0 and 1 in Windows Media Center. I don't have any dropped tuners or de-pixelation.

I don't think the signal strength has anything to do with it either. I can change the station to one that has higher signal strength, or lower, and it still works on WMC and doesn't work on SageDCT. I'm sorry I don't have logs to share. I don't know what's going on with that.

Verbose logging is verbose. I can't speak to why it isn't writing in your environment, I can't reproduce that scenario and without a log file I just have to take your word that it's setup correctly.

WiFi is a horrible way to move large datasets around; period. That other products/solutions can better deal with its deficiencies doesn't change that. If they don't experience issues, either the use case isn't as demanding or they've built in fault tolerance in for poor network design.

That SageDCT works for long periods of time probably means that there isn't much that I can do for you. Something besides it is most likely the root cause of the problems you are experiencing.

[freewheeling]

Originally Posted by phelme

How is the CPU load while recording with SageDCT? If it ever gets too "stressed" you'll start dropping packets.

Also, what are your buffer sizes set to?

Going by the CPU bar meter in SageTV it wasn't terribly stressed, and it's a 6-core AMD processor. Buffer size? What's that?

[freewheeling]

Originally Posted by babgvant

Verbose logging is verbose. I can't speak to why it isn't writing in your environment, I can't reproduce that scenario and without a log file I just have to take your word that it's setup correctly.

WiFi is a horrible way to move large datasets around; period. That other products/solutions can better deal with its deficiencies doesn't change that. If they don't experience issues, either the use case isn't as demanding or they've built in fault tolerance in for poor network design.

That SageDCT works for long periods of time probably means that there isn't much that I can do for you. Something besides it is most likely the root cause of the problems you are experiencing.

This is basically what I said. It's beta software and will work for some and not others, but I don't have enough information to troubleshoot it, and apparently can't get it. The log was so huge that MS Word wouldn't even open it. And that's after only an hour.

I noticed that after it went flaky and I took a look at the server machine something was running that runs only rarely. In one case it was the Apple Update Utility, and in another case my Security software was doing a monthly scan. But after closing those programs the flaky behavior continued.

Perhaps if I get a chance I'll string an ethernet cable to the server and try that. But I'll have to climb out on the roof to do it, and I'm an old phuque.

Update: I just got a message in WMC after trying to play a program and getting something that looked very much like the flaky behavior in SageDCT. It said something like "...can't receive the signal. Adjustment to the signal may be necessary..." at which point the screen cleared and the message went away.

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by freewheeling

The log was so huge that MS Word wouldn't even open it. And that's after only an hour.

Do you have "Debug data receive" enabled? It shouldn't be that large after an hour. I run mine in verbose mode all the time and it doesn't get that big.

[freewheeling]

Originally Posted by phelme

81% is kinda borderline for a cable signal, I know I had dropouts in the past when my levels were that low. Have you considered putting in an amp?

The other thing to try to eliminate the possibility of it being WiFi related is run with Ethernet for a while to see how it behaves.

OK, it might be signal strength. What's a good amp, and how do I connect it? Can I connect it where I currently have the splitter? Replace the splitter?

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by freewheeling

Perhaps if I get a chance I'll string an ethernet cable to the server and try that. But I'll have to climb out on the roof to do it, and I'm an old phuque.

Why not run a cable b/w them temporarily?

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by freewheeling

OK, it might be signal strength. What's a good amp, and how do I connect it? Can I connect it where I currently have the splitter? Replace the splitter?

The best way is to reduce splits and use high quality splitters w/ low loss. After that, terminate any unused outputs. Amps are a last resort.

[phelme]

Originally Posted by babgvant

The best way is to reduce splits and use high quality splitters w/ low loss. After that, terminate any unused outputs. Amps are a last resort.

Amps are a last resort, unless you have a long run to the street like I do and the upstream signal from the cable modem won't work without one. The one I use is quite flexible, as it allows for variable signal in both directions. It's a PCT. Find it here.

freewheeling - You might be better off if you must split to get an amp that will do the splitting as well.

[phelme]

Originally Posted by freewheeling

Going by the CPU bar meter in SageTV it wasn't terribly stressed, and it's a 6-core AMD processor. Buffer size? What's that?

If you don't know about the buffer size than likely you haven't messed with it and its fine.

[freewheeling]

Originally Posted by babgvant

The best way is to reduce splits and use high quality splitters w/ low loss. After that, terminate any unused outputs. Amps are a last resort.

I dropped a splitter where no one but me was using it. Increased signal strength to 86% on that channel so it's a 5% improvement. But again, SageDCT was flaky even when the signal was close to 100% so something tells me that's not the problem. I guess it's possible that the WiFi connection is a problem even if the bandwidth isn't. I could try stringing a cable, but it will have to be across the roof because I don't have a long enough ethernet cable to go through the house. And extending the coax would just drop the signal strength, so there's no sense even trying that.

[fresnoboy]

Originally Posted by freewheeling

I dropped a splitter where no one but me was using it. Increased signal strength to 86% on that channel so it's a 5% improvement. But again, SageDCT was flaky even when the signal was close to 100% so something tells me that's not the problem. I guess it's possible that the WiFi connection is a problem even if the bandwidth isn't. I could try stringing a cable, but it will have to be across the roof because I don't have a long enough ethernet cable to go through the house. And extending the coax would just drop the signal strength, so there's no sense even trying that.

It could be you have sporadic wifi throughput issues - can you upgrade the wifi hardware to something higher performance, or buy a couple of MoCA bridges?

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by freewheeling

I dropped a splitter where no one but me was using it. Increased signal strength to 86% on that channel so it's a 5% improvement. But again, SageDCT was flaky even when the signal was close to 100% so something tells me that's not the problem. I guess it's possible that the WiFi connection is a problem even if the bandwidth isn't. I could try stringing a cable, but it will have to be across the roof because I don't have a long enough ethernet cable to go through the house. And extending the coax would just drop the signal strength, so there's no sense even trying that.

IMHO, signal strength like this doesn't really tell you anything. You need a device that can tell you the real signal strength in dbmv. A good catv signal will be from +10dbmv to -10dbmv. If your signal falls outside that range you have a problem you need to correct. Other than the signal/noise ratio there isn't another way to tell how strong of a signal you have. I have it easy because my cable modem, a Motorola Surfboard, has a web interface that I can easily read off the signal level. Many STB's have a management interface where you can see the signal level. Reading the percentage will never really tell you anything very useful.

[freewheeling]

Originally Posted by fresnoboy

It could be you have sporadic wifi throughput issues - can you upgrade the wifi hardware to something higher performance, or buy a couple of MoCA bridges?

I don't think there *is* anything higher performance. The router is an Airport Extreme Base Station 2nd Edition and the wireless adapter is a Trendnet 450Mbps Dual Band Wireless N USB adapter. I'm using a 5Ghz channel and I have the multicast rate set as high as it can go.

BTW, I've also eliminated any chance that it might be signal strength by reducing the number of connections so that now even the worst channels have a signal strength over 90%. I reinstalled SageDCT and it's working so far, but have a couple of questions for Andy:

1. How do you set the service to run automatically. I had to start it manually.
2. How should I set up the "main application" in the HDHR Setup utility. I think the main reason for a SageTV option there is to output the QAM tuner files, but since I'm using SageDCT something else might be more appropriate, like "Other: Registry" or "Media Portal"?

BTW, I couldn't get SageMCTuner to work. I did get the install.cmd to work by changing the output to ANSI text, but the channels it found were weird and I couldn't get any of them to tune anyway.

Also, the verbose log for SageDCT started growing very fast and reached a max of 15,000 kilobytes, and then stopped. It doesn't seem to be doing anything much at the moment.

[freewheeling]

Worked for awhile and then started going flaky and then just cut off entirely. I finally risked my life and crawled out on the roof to link an ethernet cable directly between the server and the HDHRP. I actually used the same AEBS router on the 10.0.0.x subnet but used one of the LAN ports on it to connect directly to my computer, instead of using the wireless. I still have to use a wireless adapter to connect to the internet but the machines on the 10.0.1.x subnet all connect through that using connection sharing. Seems to work so far.

WMC and all other HDTV apps seem to be much more tolerant of wireless than SageDCT. Important to know.

Update: So far the direct ethernet is working, although I thought it was going flaky for a bit. Turns out it was just part of the opening credits for *Person of Interest*, LOL.

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by freewheeling

WMC and all other HDTV apps seem to be much more tolerant of wireless than SageDCT. Important to know.

Update: So far the direct ethernet is working, although I thought it was going flaky for a bit. Turns out it was just part of the opening credits for *Person of Interest*, LOL.

It's not SageDCT being the issue. You have to understand you are using the Prime, a true network tuner. This is not the same as the Ceton which is either PCI or USB. The Prime itself is very sensitive to the network and network settings. On the SD forum there is a post for network troubleshooting. IMO this should be a necessary step for all to perform. When I first had my Prime setup it was OK. SOmetimes I would get the macroblocking/green blocks or sometimes a halt. I had put in an Intel NIC and it ddin't really seem better. Once I ran the test it showed out 44,000 packets I had over 14,000 errors. The network test is the only way you will see this. These errors do not show up in any of the Windows logs or Sage logs that I could see. The key for me was disabling Interrupt Modulation. Once I did this I had no errors whatsoevver. I also tweaked some setting and upped some buffer sizes in the NIC settings and with the latest Prime driver you can now enable flow control. Also disable network throttling in Windows. Once I did this I have had no halts, none to very ittle macroblocking and no green blocks.

As you can see even at "N" speeds, even at 450Mbps the range, interference, and other latency issues are almost always going to come into play when you're setting up a wireless network. And you will have more dropped packets on wireless than a wired connection and for HD that is unacceptable.

This explains it well: Tech Tip 52

Even SiliconDust recommends an Intel NIC over any of the ones built-in. And on your Realteks and Marvels chipset you end up disabling most of the offload options that in turn increase the use of your CPU for the NIC functions. There's more to using the Prime than to just plug it in. I would recommend no matter what you use (WMC or Sage) run the network performance tests and commandlines as outlined by SiliconDust. You may be surprised at what is going on. Network Packet Loss Troubleshooting Follow the Prime instructions.

Gerry

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by freewheeling

1. How do you set the service to run automatically. I had to start it manually.

It should start automatically. Is the service not set to do that?

Originally Posted by freewheeling

2. How should I set up the "main application" in the HDHR Setup utility. I think the main reason for a SageTV option there is to output the QAM tuner files, but since I'm using SageDCT something else might be more appropriate, like "Other: Registry" or "Media Portal"?

I don't think that's important (I leave it on whatever the defaults are and I don't even have the SD SW installed on my SageTV box).

[freewheeling]

Originally Posted by gplasky

It's not SageDCT being the issue. You have to understand you are using the Prime, a true network tuner. This is not the same as the Ceton which is either PCI or USB. The Prime itself is very sensitive to the network and network settings. On the SD forum there is a post for network troubleshooting. IMO this should be a necessary step for all to perform. When I first had my Prime setup it was OK. SOmetimes I would get the macroblocking/green blocks or sometimes a halt. I had put in an Intel NIC and it ddin't really seem better. Once I ran the test it showed out 44,000 packets I had over 14,000 errors. The network test is the only way you will see this. These errors do not show up in any of the Windows logs or Sage logs that I could see. The key for me was disabling Interrupt Modulation. Once I did this I had no errors whatsoevver. I also tweaked some setting and upped some buffer sizes in the NIC settings and with the latest Prime driver you can now enable flow control. Also disable network throttling in Windows. Once I did this I have had no halts, none to very ittle macroblocking and no green blocks.

As you can see even at "N" speeds, even at 450Mbps the range, interference, and other latency issues are almost always going to come into play when you're setting up a wireless network. And you will have more dropped packets on wireless than a wired connection and for HD that is unacceptable.

This explains it well: Tech Tip 52

Even SiliconDust recommends an Intel NIC over any of the ones built-in. And on your Realteks and Marvels chipset you end up disabling most of the offload options that in turn increase the use of your CPU for the NIC functions. There's more to using the Prime than to just plug it in. I would recommend no matter what you use (WMC or Sage) run the network performance tests and commandlines as outlined by SiliconDust. You may be surprised at what is going on. Network Packet Loss Troubleshooting Follow the Prime instructions.

Gerry

Well yeah, but *again* I had no observable problems in WMC, QuickTV, or VLC using a wireless connection. And if you have to buy a specific NIC in order to get the contraption to work, that should be something that's mentioned up front. In my view it's not really a "network" device, if it can't go wireless, and especially if it requires specific network hardware. Wired networks will look like the Stone Age in 10 years.

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by freewheeling

Well yeah, but *again* I had no observable problems in WMC, QuickTV, or VLC using a wireless connection. And if you have to buy a specific NIC in order to get the contraption to work, that should be something that's mentioned up front. In my view it's not really a "network" device, if it can't go wireless, and especially if it requires specific network hardware. Wired networks will look like the Stone Age in 10 years.

But wireless is limited in its reliability. Regardless of distance you are talking about a medium that is transmitted through air. Errors and interference can naturally be present from various sources. Even under the very best best real world conditions transmission rates are going to vary. Just because a device is a network device does not mean it was made or intended to be used over a wireless connection with its lack of reliability. Only a wired connection can eliminate that lack of reliability.