SageTV acquired by Google

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by rrhorer

Maybe we need to step back from our HTPC "geekness" and view the TV stb issue from a "normal" consumer's perspective. What if SageTV were developed as an appliance-type product, albeit less configurable?

But how? And how less configurable? Because of all the myriad ways of people receive TV into the house currently it is almost a requirement to be an IT geek and understand what you're doing. Not every tuner can connect to every way people get TV. QAM or clear QAM. DirectTV, Dish, SDV, OTA, Cablecard, component, firewire. Until that standard comes out that everyone embraces (AllVid gateway or some other solution) it will mostly be a geek's domain. As hard as Microsoft tried to simplify it with Media Center it started simple but people wanted more tuners to work with it, more sources, etc. So that to is more of a geek's hobby than Joe User who wouldn't know the difference between firewire or a firesale. The only other way it is simplified is the provider itself coming our with their solution. Thet CAN make it simple becasue as far as they are concerned they are the single solution for the user. The method of getting the TV to the house and then their way of distrubuting it. Currently that's the simplest way for it to work for Joe User. And I didn't even mention the complexity of DRM and what device can actually play this stuff.

Google's GoogleTV was their first shot with an idea. It failed miserably. Seriously-more returns than sales? And Logitech Revue from a $300 device to a $99 device. Well at least the software is upgradable. But not knowing what it can be upgraded to in the future and how it might work leaves the bargain questionable.

Gerry

[martin]

The solution is to get rid of TV tuners entirely.

The long-term trend is away from broadcasting toward on-demand video. A video recorder is just a makeshift solution that allows content from television networks to be captured for later viewing, but we are limited to the available channels. When YouTube started allowing videos longer than ten minutes, we finally were able to watch any show at any time, without having to wait for it to be scheduled on a television network. The thing that really distinguishes a PVR from a VCR is the intelligent way it uses the guide data, but if we move to a YouTube model, it becomes a search problem, not a scheduling problem.

[rwc]

scheduling AND marketing, no? If a guide becomes irrelevant, how would you know what was out there?

[martin]

Marketing new shows is a problem regardless.

I’m really impressed by Apple Airplay. I can search YouTube on my iPad, and then play any search result on my Apple TV. The same thing could be done with popular television shows, and other suggested shows can be marketed along side the search results.

Maybe having control of that marketing is what Google wants?

Now you have me wondering, if SageTV’s strength is it’s guide data combined with it's flexibility using local tuners, why did Google aquire them if both of these things are going away?

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by martin

The solution is to get rid of TV tuners entirely.

The long-term trend is away from broadcasting toward on-demand video. A video recorder is just a makeshift solution that allows content from television networks to be captured for later viewing, but we are limited to the available channels. When YouTube started allowing videos longer than ten minutes, we finally were able to watch any show at any time, without having to wait for it to be scheduled on a television network. The thing that really distinguishes a PVR from a VCR is the intelligent way it uses the guide data, but if we move to a YouTube model, it becomes a search problem, not a scheduling problem.

The key word is long-term. But we are years away from that. Satellite TV needs a box (think of it as its tuner). Cable TV needs a box or cable (again a tuner. Current cablecard tech is only 1 way so no PPV or VOD or true Program guide) OTA can't really provide on demand and this TV is basically free. Will these change? Eventually. But these large behemoths aren't changing overnight. Everyone thinks we'll just get out TV over the Internet. The bandwidth and infrastructure aren't there. The cable companies went digital with the thought of cramming more choices down the pipeline they already put in place. They'll pipe Internet streaming over their infrastructure on their terms. Some cable companies are basically putting their VOD/Shared media server in place on their premises. So when they do, tuners go away. But then how will third parties tap into that? You'll be limited by what equipment your cableco provides-and you will have to like it. This isn't OTA tv where anyone can get it. If the new equipment STB that goes into your home only has HDMI w/HDCP outputs, using third party products to record the media becomes more difficult or non-existent. And if you can get the TV you want, when you want, and pause or rewind or play it on your mobile devices and maybe pull your own photos or music from your home server (or your music is in an Amazon locker on the web and it can play it) then the need for another simple solution goes away. I just don't see it going this way for a long time. (+5 years)

Gerry

[pez]

I read an article in the WSJ this morning that Logitech is getting more returns of the Revue than it is selling. They lowered the price to $99 and slammed Google for not delivering on its promises (not sure what they were/are).

This IPSTB is a tough nut to crack...um I mean get right. I've played with GTV and I don't get it. It is really just an overlay for your TV with a slightly better guide experience than the cable box. Browsing the internet on the TV is not a good experience with whatever you use including an HTPC.

I think Google really needs a SageTV type experience for GTV. Which leads me to my title...Google bought Sage for us! They needed the user base...

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by pez

I read an article in the WSJ this morning that Logitech is getting more returns of the Revue than it is selling. They lowered the price to $99 and slammed Google for not delivering on its promises (not sure what they were/are).

This IPSTB is a tough nut to crack...um I mean get right. I've played with GTV and I don't get it. It is really just an overlay for your TV with a slightly better guide experience than the cable box. Browsing the internet on the TV is not a good experience with whatever you use including an HTPC.

I think Google really needs a SageTV type experience for GTV. Which leads me to my title...Google bought Sage for us! They needed the user base...

The problem is, "US" are not even the typical 'geek' market anymore. the typical 'geek' classifies anyone with a bunch of gadgets. SageTV is not a gadget, it is an infrastructure. In the course of converting the sagetv idea from infrastructure to geek, they will undoubtedly limit it in such a way as to alienate "US" from it, ultimately, "US" will end up finding or creating something else, or coming up with solutions to continue using/expanding/building upon the existing infrastructure we already have. In any case, i doubt GoogleTV will be a part of my household.

[rrhorer]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

The problem is, "US" are not even the typical 'geek' market anymore. the typical 'geek' classifies anyone with a bunch of gadgets. SageTV is not a gadget, it is an infrastructure. In the course of converting the sagetv idea from infrastructure to geek, they will undoubtedly limit it in such a way as to alienate "US" from it, ultimately, "US" will end up finding or creating something else, or coming up with solutions to continue using/expanding/building upon the existing infrastructure we already have. In any case, i doubt GoogleTV will be a part of my household.

Another problem is the technology giants stomping all over our meager resources (the devs are great but have regular jobs as well). Around '81, I belonged to a computer club that met at the Colorado School of Mines. We had our own 6502-based design that ran a version of Apple basic when the Apple II 16k was hot s__t (but expensive). My system used a small modified b&w TV for a monitor and booted from an audio cassette; but I was in the middle of burning a circuit board to control an 8 inch floppy. Then, the Commodore 64 came out, and I threw in the towel and bought it. I see a lot of people on this forum talking about throwing in the towel for a Tivo or even a multi-room stb dvr setup. While I'm in your corner on this and hoping that you are right, I believe it will be a uphill struggle to keep up with GoogleTV II or whatever comes next.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by rrhorer

Another problem is the technology giants stomping all over our meager resources (the devs are great but have regular jobs as well). Around '81, I belonged to a computer club that met at the Colorado School of Mines. We had our own 6502-based design that ran a version of Apple basic when the Apple II 16k was hot s__t (but expensive). My system used a small modified b&w TV for a monitor and booted from an audio cassette; but I was in the middle of burning a circuit board to control an 8 inch floppy. Then, the Commodore 64 came out, and I threw in the towel and bought it. I see a lot of people on this forum talking about throwing in the towel for a Tivo or even a multi-room stb dvr setup. While I'm in your corner on this and hoping that you are right, I believe it will be a uphill struggle to keep up with GoogleTV II or whatever comes next.

To be fair though, the C64 had more to offer than the Apple II did, making the switch reasonable. GoogleTV, with it's focus on streaming media, is not near as interesting to me.

[hemicuda]

Originally Posted by rrhorer

I see a lot of people on this forum talking about throwing in the towel for a Tivo or even a multi-room stb dvr setup. While I'm in your corner on this and hoping that you are right, I believe it will be a uphill struggle to keep up with GoogleTV II or whatever comes next.

The people that are willing to switch to the Multi-room DVR offerings I've seen would probably not find SageTV as useful as those of us that are genuinely concerned about the takeover. The DVR solution is definitely simpler and easier to manager, but with only 500GB (typ) of storage and pay-per-play ($3-5/show) on-demand I only use it as a backup to Sage. I've never watched an on-demand show that cost $ since I've had a STB DVR. Until the STB manufacturers/Cable providers start allowing gobs of attached storage they'll never fulfill my viewing needs for just regular TV. I doubt they'll ever support the multi-TB worth of movies I have stored in Sage.

[rrhorer]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

To be fair though, the C64 had more to offer than the Apple II did, making the switch reasonable. GoogleTV, with it's focus on streaming media, is not near as interesting to me.

Originally Posted by hemicuda

The people that are willing to switch to the Multi-room DVR offerings I've seen would probably not find SageTV as useful as those of us that are genuinely concerned about the takeover. The DVR solution is definitely simpler and easier to manager, but with only 500GB (typ) of storage and pay-per-play ($3-5/show) on-demand I only use it as a backup to Sage. I've never watched an on-demand show that cost $ since I've had a STB DVR. Until the STB manufacturers/Cable providers start allowing gobs of attached storage they'll never fulfill my viewing needs for just regular TV. I doubt they'll ever support the multi-TB worth of movies I have stored in Sage.

I totally agree with both statements; and I'm sticking with Sage as long as possible -- even though I didn't have the foresight to get client licenses or another HD300; so I'm at the mercy of my aging HD100. But, my point is that two major components of SageTV's success, the SageTV team headed by Jeff and the SageTV community, have either gone or may be slowly losing ground through attrition. The "slowly" could change abruptly IF any of the technology giants gets its act together and comes out with a product that appeals to the masses, albeit less than what we've become accustomed to using. For example, WMC would only need to support REAL extenders to get a lot of current SageTV users to jump ship. I don't expect MS to do it; but someone else may.

I would really like for someone to give me a reason to be more optimistic about SageTV's future and especially its demise for me when an extender dies.

[brainbone]

Originally Posted by rrhorer

I would really like for someone to give me a reason to be more optimistic about SageTV's future

What future?

While I'll be holding on to SageTV until something better comes along, or until I no longer need a DVR that's not DRM encumbered -- SageTV, as a viable platform, is dead. It has about as much of a future ahead of it as the Apple II, C64, Amiga, etc. Third party developers will eventually move on -- as will the users.

But to be optimistic, my glass is currently half full of Lagunitas' A Little Sumpin' Extra! Ale.

[brainbone]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

In any case, i doubt GoogleTV will be a part of my household.

If GoogleTV finally opens up (At least to the point Android 2.3 is, with a vibrant market/developer community), I think it'll end up connected to my TV.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by brainbone

What future?

While I'll be holding on to SageTV until something better comes along, or until I no longer need a DVR that's not DRM encumbered -- SageTV, as a viable platform, is dead. It has about as much of a future ahead of it as the Apple II, C64, Amiga, etc. Third party developers will eventually move on -- as will the users.

But to be optimistic, my glass is currently half full of Lagunitas' A Little Sumpin' Extra! Ale.

That's a really incorrect analogy. C64, Apple II, Amiga, etc are obsolete products (meaning something better came along). SageTV is not obsolete, as there is nothing that can do what it does. The only negative thing SageTV is, is unavailable, but for those that already have it, that isn't really that serious.

[mkanet]

I'm not quite as optimistic as you. I think we're doing the right thing by hanging onto our sageTV setups dearly; preparing to keep them running as long as possible. From what I remember, after C64 and Amiga stopped selling, it took YEARS before there was anything that could take their place. The chances are we might have to wait years before there's a product to switch to that doesn't feel like a huge downgrade (in respect to functionality/flexibility/picture quality combo)

My biggest fear is the mass market paving the way for next generation HTPC technology. I've heard on multiple blogs that that the average person would rather stream low quality/bitrate Netflix On Demand TV/Movies (and the like) on a ipad (and other mobile devices) instead of renting/buying Bluray discs and DVR'ing cable/satellite TV shows on their large displays. ISPs would be even less motivated to upgrade their infrastructures to accommodate everyone being able to stream ATSC/BD video quality/bitrate we're used to. Hence, there's a good possibility most popular next-gen HTPC solutions may not offer the picture quality/sound we're used to; at least from large companies like Google/Apple; at best, offering 1080p "lite" streaming to deliver movies. I was actually hoping for my next generation HTPC to offer significantly higher video quality for TV/Movies than what I have now (quadHD, BD 2.0); not lower. Plus, I think we'll have much less flexibility than we do now since they would be under pressure to force copy protection. I really hope I'm wrong; and, that's not the direction we're headed towards.

Originally Posted by brainbone

What future?

While I'll be holding on to SageTV until something better comes along, or until I no longer need a DVR that's not DRM encumbered -- SageTV, as a viable platform, is dead. It has about as much of a future ahead of it as the Apple II, C64, Amiga, etc. Third party developers will eventually move on -- as will the users.

But to be optimistic, my glass is currently half full of Lagunitas' A Little Sumpin' Extra! Ale.

[brainbone]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

SageTV is not obsolete, as there is nothing that can do what it does.

SageTV will become obsolete, since it is no longer actively developed. Name one closed source software product that has been discontinued, yet maintains a loyal, active development community that keeps the product from becoming obsolete and marginalized.

If SageTV was open sourced, I would agree with you, but it's not. Because of this, there are limits to what the development community can and will do, and because of that, it will be obsolete sooner than later.

[stevech]

Originally Posted by rrhorer

Maybe we need to step back from our HTPC "geekness" and view the TV stb issue from a "normal" consumer's perspective. ... What would the hardware for a product like this look like -- mulitple cablecard tuners? What would it require to hook a large number of customers on the product line? ...

TiVo?

[rrhorer]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

The only negative thing SageTV is, is unavailable, but for those that already have it, that isn't really that serious.

For those like you who had the foresight to not rely on Sage hardware, that may be true. Those of us that depend on extenders may be out of luck when they die. If the Boxee project or something similar bears fruit, we could make do.

Originally Posted by stevech

TiVo?

I had a Tivo Series II and it was a reasonably good appliance. So, I expect the same is true for their lastest offerings. However, I doubt Tivo addresses our central storage requirements (as someone noted previously) and monthly payments (or a lot more $ up-front) for epg service is a major drawback. It is also a closed system that could go the way of SageTV. As I recall, Tivo was in dire financial straights in the past.

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by rrhorer

For those like you who had the foresight to not rely on Sage hardware, that may be true. Those of us that depend on extenders may be out of luck when they die. If the Boxee project or something similar bears fruit, we could make do.

Even though the current Boxee plugin is alpha and a work in progress it can be added to the Boxee repository, show up as a Boxee app and with using the SageTV interface present a Malore-type recording list and play my recordings both from a HDHomerun and a HD-PVR. This is on a Windows client PC but should be no different on the little Boxee Box. It is getting there and should be a feasible addition/replacement for an extender.

Gerry

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by brainbone

SageTV will become obsolete, since it is no longer actively developed. Name one closed source software product that has been discontinued, yet maintains a loyal, active development community that keeps the product from becoming obsolete and marginalized.

If SageTV was open sourced, I would agree with you, but it's not. Because of this, there are limits to what the development community can and will do, and because of that, it will be obsolete sooner than later.

Yes, someday sagetv will be obsolete... but as I mentioned, it would take quite a bit of development in competing products for it to become so. The point was that it is NOT obsolete NOW, nor will it be for at least a year or two. nPVR, actually, seems to be the most likely to obsolete it, because it is 'early' enough in its development to go in that direction, and already has a lot of the things behind the scenes that made sagetv so great (including some level of extender support).