New to Sage & HD-PVR & Building an HTPC

[TorontoSage]

Originally Posted by Peter_h

If you are asking if sage or WHS has a drive max then no. WHS has a max but it's unkknow what that is...

As long as you are powering them properly, you will be fine.

Ok, given the number of drives is not an issue, what about physically connecting them? If they power supply can deliver enough power do you simply daisy chain them? I'll be using the Corsair 520HX modular power supply (as I was told modular is better for connecting). Also, once you get past 6 drives, how do you install them in the case. Don't most cases only have 6 bays? Or can they be connected internally but physically sit outside the case?

[Peter_h]

Originally Posted by TorontoSage

Ok, given the number of drives is not an issue, what about physically connecting them? If they power supply can deliver enough power do you simply daisy chain them? I'll be using the Corsair 520HX modular power supply (as I was told modular is better for connecting). Also, once you get past 6 drives, how do you install them in the case. Don't most cases only have 6 bays? Or can they be connected internally but physically sit outside the case?

That depends. What kind of case do you have? Tower? Minitower? Rackmount?

I have 7 drives in my case. I will be upgrading in the next 6 months and adding another 5 for a total of 12 in my case. If I really needed to, I could have 15 in the case easily.

I use a Thermaltake M9 Case. If you take a look inside mine it has 9 x 5 1/4" bays going all the way down the case.

I chose this case specifically for that reason. In those 5 1/4" bays i have bunch of sata backplanes that hold and cool the drives. For example this one puts 4 HD's in 3 x 51/4" bays. This one will do 5 drives in a 3 x 5 1/4".

So, my 9 bays x 3 of the 5 drive norco's = 15 drives easily.

If I had the space for a rack and a place that the noise would not be an issue, I would have just gone with the Norco 20 bay 4 U rack case. It would have been a lot nicer and cheaper.

[TorontoSage]

Originally Posted by Peter_h

That depends. What kind of case do you have? Tower? Minitower? Rackmount?

I have 7 drives in my case. I will be upgrading in the next 6 months and adding another 5 for a total of 12 in my case. If I really needed to, I could have 15 in the case easily.

I use a Thermaltake M9 Case. If you take a look inside mine it has 9 x 5 1/4" bays going all the way down the case.

Ok now I understand. But, the picture for the Thermaltake M9 Case is labelled '8 External 5.25" drive bay x 8', but that must be a typo as it is pointing to what looks like internal drive bays, or am I missing something here?

Also, even though the 'SATA backplane RAID' has raid in the title, that doesn't mean you have to employ raid aspect, right? Can you just install the drives and let WHS handle the backup?

Originally Posted by Peter_h

I chose this case specifically for that reason. In those 5 1/4" bays i have bunch of sata backplanes that hold and cool the drives. For example this one puts 4 HD's in 3 x 51/4" bays. This one will do 5 drives in a 3 x 5 1/4".

I don't understand. Don't the bays hold the drives and the backplane is an external box you connect to the power supply of the case so that you can have more drives? The external box doesn't go in the drive bay does it? Or, do you somehow to take up a drive bay to connect something like a Norco? Wouldn't the Norco just direct connect to the power supply and not take up a drive bay?

Originally Posted by Peter_h

So, my 9 bays x 3 of the 5 drive norco's = 15 drives easily.

I understand each Norco can have 5 drives in it, so if you had 3 Norco's that would be 3 x 5 = 15 drives. But I don't understand the 9 bays x 3 part. Please explain.

[Peter_h]

Originally Posted by TorontoSage

Ok now I understand. But, the picture for the Thermaltake M9 Case is labelled '8 External 5.25" drive bay x 8', but that must be a typo as it is pointing to what looks like internal drive bays, or am I missing something here?

Each vented panel in the front comes off so I can put anything I need through the case, Ie a DVD drive or these sata backplanes.

Originally Posted by TorontoSage

Also, even though the 'SATA backplane RAID' has raid in the title, that doesn't mean you have to employ raid aspect, right? Can you just install the drives and let WHS handle the backup?

These backplanes just house the drives, they don't do anything else. All I connect to them is power and the sata cables. There is no logic in the backplanes as far as assigning RAID or WHS. They just house the dirves.

Originally Posted by TorontoSage

I don't understand. Don't the bays hold the drives and the backplane is an external box you connect to the power supply of the case so that you can have more drives? The external box doesn't go in the drive bay does it? Or, do you somehow to take up a drive bay to connect something like a Norco? Wouldn't the Norco just direct connect to the power supply and not take up a drive bay?

The backplanes are internal. They are an enclosure for your hard drives that will cool the drives via fan mounted in the back, as well as allow you to quickly hot swap, and alerting.

These go in the drive bays. They are internal, not external. Take a couple more looks at the pics and it should be clear. They accept standard molex/sata power connectors. If you look at the very first one i linked, it has the slots on the sides of it to accomodate for the drive slots that most cases have.

Originally Posted by TorontoSage

I understand each Norco can have 5 drives in it, so if you had 3 Norco's that would be 3 x 5 = 15 drives. But I don't understand the 9 bays x 3 part. Please explain.

The norco's each take up 3 internal 5 1/4" bays. So my 9 bays/3 bays required for each gives me 3 norco's required. 3 norcos @ 5 drives each = 15 drives possible all internal.

[sandor]

or to put it another way, the bays are 5.25" (the size of an internal DVD drive), but hard drives are only 3.5".

so the norco has mounting points for 5x3.5" drives to be mounted i the same space 3x5.25" drives normally fit.

[TorontoSage]

Originally Posted by sandor

or to put it another way, the bays are 5.25" (the size of an internal DVD drive), but hard drives are only 3.5".

so the norco has mounting points for 5x3.5" drives to be mounted i the same space 3x5.25" drives normally fit.

Oh, ok, that's what was confusing me. So I guess the drives are oriented vertically then in order to get 5 of them into a 5.25" bay?

And, also, it shows 6 x 5.25" bays and 3 x 3.5" bays. So is there a removable bracket inside the 3 x 3.5" bays so that you can get the Norco in? The 3.5" bays look narrower internally than the 3.5" bays.

[Peter_h]

Originally Posted by sandor

or to put it another way, the bays are 5.25" (the size of an internal DVD drive), but hard drives are only 3.5".

so the norco has mounting points for 5x3.5" drives to be mounted i the same space 3x5.25" drives normally fit.

Sort of. The ones I use aren't one to one. They do make backplanes that will mount 1 x 3.5" drive into 1 x 5 1/4".

The norco is 5 x 3.5" drives into 3 x 5 1/4" bays. They are a little more effecient.

[Peter_h]

Originally Posted by TorontoSage

Oh, ok, that's what was confusing me. So I guess the drives are oriented vertically then in order to get 5 of them into a 5.25" bay?

They are vertical in the 3 bay - 5 drive orientations. In the 3 bay - 4 drive orientations, they are horizontal.

[Peter_h]

Originally Posted by TorontoSage

And, also, it shows 6 x 5.25" bays and 3 x 3.5" bays. So is there a removable bracket inside the 3 x 3.5" bays so that you can get the Norco in? The 3.5" bays look narrower internally than the 3.5" bays.

Yes. If you look at the last 3 bays in the case, that is actually a removeable hard drive cage. It takes up 3 bays and can mount 3 drives. It also has a fan. It unscrews and can be taken out or moved up.

It will be removed once I do my next upgrade.

[TorontoSage]

Originally Posted by Peter_h

Yes. If you look at the last 3 bays in the case, that is actually a removeable hard drive cage. It takes up 3 bays and can mount 3 drives. It also has a fan. It unscrews and can be taken out or moved up.

It will be removed once I do my next upgrade.

So I take it then until one is up to capacity on the bays, say, using 9 x 3.5" drives and some case fans, there is no reason to get something like the Norco, but once you need to install more drives that's the time to buy it because you don't have any more space and with the Norco you can then go up to 15 drives?

[TorontoSage]

Originally Posted by Peter_h

That depends. What kind of case do you have? Tower? Minitower? Rackmount?

I have 7 drives in my case. I will be upgrading in the next 6 months and adding another 5 for a total of 12 in my case. If I really needed to, I could have 15 in the case easily.

I am curious as to why you would have the need to add 5 drives all at once. What capacity are you using? Is it because you prefer for some reason to add smaller drives instead of one larger drive when you need more capacity? If so, I wouldn't mind knowing why.

Also, why do they call them 5.25" external drive bays when they are clearly inside the case so they are internal. I was going to get the Antec 300 case beffore I talked to you (which seems like it provides the same functionality as the M9 it seems) and they also call the internal 5.25" drive bays external for some reason.

[Peter_h]

Originally Posted by TorontoSage

So I take it then until one is up to capacity on the bays, say, using 9 x 3.5" drives and some case fans, there is no reason to get something like the Norco, but once you need to install more drives that's the time to buy it because you don't have any more space and with the Norco you can then go up to 15 drives?

It only came with one cage and that one cage only holds 3 drive. I have 7 drives. Therefore, i had to get something to mount the extra 4.

when I built the system, I had not intentions of using that hard drive cage. I wanted sata backplanes because I did not want to crack open my case if I needed to replace a drive. The ability to remove a problem drive while the system is still live is a big deal for me. It's all about up time in my household.

[Peter_h]

Originally Posted by TorontoSage

I am curious as to why you would have the need to add 5 drives all at once. What capacity are you using? Is it because you prefer for some reason to add smaller drives instead of one larger drive when you need more capacity? If so, I wouldn't mind knowing why.

That is just the next upgrade I have decided on. In my storage pool I have 4 x 1 tb drives.

For my OS 2 x 250 gb in a raid 1 and 1 extra 250gb drive as a hot swap so the system keeps running in case of a drive failure/RMA.

Total storage is a little over 4tb with about 60% full. I have not dived into blue ray but will be starting in the next couple of months.

Once I make that transition, storage will dissapear quick. Since this is our primary server, Uptime is very important so if I am going to take the server down and add some drives, I am going to add more than one. Couple that with the fact that shipping is always a challenge out to hawaii. At that point I will add another 5 drive, probably TB or 2TB and be done with it.

You can think of it as me postponing minor upgrades until it is absolutely necessary and then making some major ones. I found out very quickly, if you minimize the maintenance and tinkering, everyone (the wife) stays happy.

Originally Posted by TorontoSage

Also, why do they call them 5.25" external drive bays when they are clearly inside the case so they are internal. I was going to get the Antec 300 case beffore I talked to you (which seems like it provides the same functionality as the M9 it seems) and they also call the internal 5.25" drive bays external for some reason.

The reason they call them external is because you can access them from the front of the case. There are some cases where there are 5.25"/3.5" in drive bays inside the case but there is not a panel that can be knocked out. This is more common with 3.5" drive bays. For example take a look at this case.

Case w/ internal 3.5" bays

There are 5 internal 3.5" bays. They are internal because you can not get to these unless you open up the case. There is no panel that you can pop to allow easy access to these.

The Antec 300 is a good case. I almost bought one but it's not 5 1/4" bays all the way down so I couldn't use sata backplanes and that's why it went off my list.

[TorontoSage]

Originally Posted by Peter_h

For my OS 2 x 250 gb in a raid 1 and 1 extra 250gb drive as a hot swap so the system keeps running in case of a drive failure/RMA.

Just when I think I know everything and think that a case is the least of my considerations, I learn a few things. Thanks.

Is the system noticeably faster if you put the OS on a separate drive from the data?

Originally Posted by Peter_h

The Antec 300 is a good case. I almost bought one but it's not 5 1/4" bays all the way down so I couldn't use sata backplanes and that's why it went off my list.

I didn't even realize that with the Antec 300. I think I'll maybe go with the case you have as it allows more 3.5" drives to be put installed. But then what drives does one install in the 3.5" internal bays? I guess not the 250gb OS drives as then they won't be hot-swappable. Actually, nothng will be hot swappable that is installed there, so I guess you populate them last.

[Peter_h]

Originally Posted by TorontoSage

Is the system noticeably faster if you put the OS on a separate drive from the data?

I don't know about faster. I did it because I wanted the OS on a RAID.

Originally Posted by TorontoSage

I didn't even realize that with the Antec 300. I think I'll maybe go with the case you have as it allows more 3.5" drives to be put installed. But then what drives does one install in the 3.5" internal bays? I guess not the 250gb OS drives as then they won't be hot-swappable. Actually, nothng will be hot swappable that is installed there, so I guess you populate them last.

I'm not quite sure what you are talking about? Are you talking about the internal 3.5" bays in the Antec 300? Hd's are the only thing that are that size. So yes you would put HD's in there. That case is not really geared toward someone that wants stuff hot-swappable. That case is for you to install all the drives internally and be done with it.

That's fine for most people, I wanted hot swap bays so that case woudn't work.

[TorontoSage]

Originally Posted by Peter_h

I'm not quite sure what you are talking about? Are you talking about the internal 3.5" bays in the Antec 300?

Sorry I should have been clearer. Since there are internal bays on the Thermaltake M9 then those will not be hot swappable. Therefore, would it be to populate them last?

What OS are you running on your server?

[Peter_h]

Originally Posted by TorontoSage

Sorry I should have been clearer. Since there are internal bays on the Thermaltake M9 then those will not be hot swappable. Therefore, would it be to populate them last?

All of the bays are external on the thermaltake M9. I just need to pop the cover on the outside and pust the backplane through.

[TorontoSage]

But the 3.5" drives are labelled as internal in the picture, unlike the 5.25" bays which are labelled external, and there is a fan in front of them. Can you take the fan off and expose the drive bays so they are accessible?

[Peter_h]

Originally Posted by TorontoSage

But the 3.5" drives are labelled as internal in the picture, unlike the 5.25" bays which are labelled external, and there is a fan in front of them. Can you take the fan off and expose the drive bays so they are accessible?

Yes. The fan is attached to the HD cage I talked about earlier. Technically, the 3.5" drives are internal because they are attached to the cage and there is a fan blocking access to them.

If you remove the cage, it looks just like the rest of the drive bays. Ie turn 3 of the black quick connects and slide the cage (fan attached) out and it will look like the other 6 x 5 1/4" bays in the picture.

[TorontoSage]

Well moving right along here on my WHS Server design, I've decided to post my analysis here again of my CPU decision at the risk of this sounding like a diary (which it probably does by now) as this might help anyone else trying to make the same decision.

I have made an about face and have decided to go with the Intel Core 2 Duo 2.5GHz E5200 (2MB L2 cache) CPU instead of the Quad Core 2.85GHz Q9550 (12MB L2 cache). I did this after someone heavily into gaming suggested the E5200 as being totally suitable for something like SageTV and a fraction of the cost of the Q9550. The Q9550 is $267 USD on sale at Dell, while I just bought the E5200 chip for $65 USD (both prices include tax and shipping). That's a savings of about $200 USD ($250 for me as I live in Canada). I decided to look into it because so many people on this forum have chips with a similar clock speed and which are not even dual core, let alone quad core, and they are quite happy with their performance.

First of all, since my HD PVRs do the encoding, that leaves SageTV to only do the recording and playing back of video files. Since I will not use placeshifting and transcoding, that leaves only commercial skip detection, which I will not be doing on the fly but after the programs are recorded, so the fact that it may take longer with a less powerful chip doesn't affect me. I do know that commercial skip detection is speeded up by using CPU with a higher clock speed and one with more cores, though. Also, I will be using only HD200s and I understand this box also takes some load off the server (but I am not sure exactly what the specifics is of what it offloads but I guess it is some of the SageTV processing of the playback of files).

The E5200 has a 2MB L2 cache vs the Q9550's 12MB L2 cache. The reason for choosing a much lower cache CPU is that all the research I have done shows that for recording and playing back of video files, the size of the L2 cache has very little bearing on performance. I posted a question on the forums regarding how L2 cache affects performance in SageTV, but did not receive any answers. All I heard was that recording and playing back of files is not cpu intensive. But, I wanted some real hard data. So I did a bit of research myself. My conclusion was reached by reading Does Cache Size Really Boost Performance?: What is the Impact of Cache Size? on Tom's Hardware and L2 Cache: 4MB or 2MB? on Anandtech.

The first article tested a Core 2 Duo 2.4 GHz E4400 (2MB L2 Cache) against a Core 2 Duo 2.4 GHz X6800 (4MB L2 Cache) and found that for a 2.4 GHz Core 2 Duo CPU, increasing the L2 cache from 2 to 4MB showed less than a 1% increase in performance for transcoding H.264 files (which is a much more cpu intensive task that recording already encoded video or playing it back). A synthetic benchmark for rendering files only showed a 1.7% improvement and a cpu benchmark only showed a 0.4% improvement. The latter article tested a simulated 1.83 GHz Core 2 Duo CPU with a 2MB L2 cache against an actual 4MB one and found that in most applications the performance improvement was only 1-7% with the highest increase in performance being 10%. I realize that these chips aren't exactly the same as the one I am choosing but they are both Core 2 Duo chips with close to the same speed and the same level of cache. Btw, I also received many comments that corroborated what these two articles said. I do realize that there might be some other factors involved (like FSB, etc) but I think these tests are pretty conclusive.

So, given the fact that the two chips I decided to pick from where only 0.350 GHz apart and that L2 cache does not appear to make much of a difference and that the $200 savings equals the cost of buying an HD200 I decided to go with the less expensive CPU. It is just so cheap now, has a high clock speed of 2.5 GHz, has 2 cores and, also, the motherboard I've chosen accepts both CPUs so I can always buy the quad core later, likely at a much less expensive price. I bet that if I do ever buy the quad core later then the cost of the two CPUs will likely be less than the cost of the quad core alone right now. So I don't have to worry about future-proofing right now. I future proof by just buying another CPU and leaving all the rest the same.

My choice might be a bit different if I was gaming on this computer, but it is just going to be a headless server. One thing I will do, though, is if I do buy the quad core in the future, is post the comparison on here to answer the question once and for all. And, this will provide a real world test of how the chip performs based on watching SageTV in action rather than empirical test results, which might have no basis in whether actual enjoyment of the system is improved or not. In other words, any improvement might not actually be able to be perceived.