to raid or not

[Skirge01]

Originally Posted by toony

There is an interesting thread here on UnRain vs FlexRaid http://lime-technology.com/forum/index.php?topic=1785.0

Interesting thread. Admittedly, I haven't ready through the entire thing, but from the first few I did read, they missed the fact that FlexRAID is MEANT for data that doesn't frequently change, such as DVD rips, MP3's, TV recordings, photos, etc. In essence, the epitome of what people on this forum would be looking to use it for.

I was the OP on that build it cheaper post. It looks interesting and what they were talking about that Flexraid needs to rebuild the parity files for every change such as deleating a file? I understand that the parity would need to be changed but it sounds like Flexraid does not do this on the fly and UnRaid does. This must be what Skirge01 was talking about when he said "automatically recalculate the parity on some interval. Mine's set for once a day, early in the morning."

This is 100% correct. When a change is made, FlexRAID needs to recalculate the parity, so that it could restore it in case of a failure. But, again, if you're using FlexRAID, you should be using it on data that's not CRITICAL and that doesn't change frequently. You can use the FlexRAID WebUI to schedule a parity update on whatever frequency you choose. Personally, if I lose up to a day's worth of TV because a drive failed before the parity was updated, I'm not going to be too upset. There are plenty of other sources to obtain the missing media. My photos, music, and DVD rips rarely change, so a daily update is more than enough for me and I probably wouldn't lose a thing.

I guess that's not a huge deal though. But these guys in that thread really seem to like UnRaid, yes it costs $130 per 16 drives but maybe there is a reason... going to keep reading.

Of course they do. They're posting there for a reason: they're current users. That's the same type of discussion we see here when BeyondTV enters the fray. We love our SageTV, so don't even think of saying something else is comparable. But, I digress.

FlexRAID is 100% free. Since 1.0 was released, if the developer loses interest, we're "stuck" with what we currently have, which is more than enough for what I implemented it for. I'm up to 8 drives in my WHS box, so I'm already half way to the limit of the PRO version of unRAID.

Skirge01, What mobo did you go with ?

I picked up the Supermicro X7DWE and paid around $300 for it on ebay. I could've easily gone with a cheaper (~$100) motherboard, but they aren't built with the same quality standards as a server mobo is and they didn't have enough PCI-e slots for any of my future, unknown, needs. The X7DWE is meant to run in pretty harsh conditions, 24/7, for many, many years. That $100 mobo might need to be replaced several times over the years I run this Supermicro. Peace of mind isn't something you can put a price on and I was willing to pay a little more to have that. I don't expect everyone to agree with my thinking, but that's the freedom we're each entitled to.

[bastafidli]

Also, have you see this?

http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/content/view/30704/76/

VIA Technologies last week announced an eight-bay NAS aimed at Windows Home Server applications.

The VIA NSD7800 is powered by a 1.5GHz VIA C7-D processor, measures 13.4" x 13.4" x 5.9" (34cm x 34cm x 15cm) and has eight 3.5" drive bays

[stanger89]

unRAID is great, IF you don't already have a "server" running. If you've got a bunch of PCs and want a new device to colocate all your files, and only do that, then unRAID is a great solution. Many people fall into this category.

But if you're like me, you've already got a PC running all the time as a "server", so the requirement for a dedicated PC makes unRAID unattractive. That's really unRAID's Achilies heel, it must be installed on a dedicated PC, and can't really do anything else.

I may have to look into FlexRAID again when I fill up my newly upgraded NAS.

[Skirge01]

Originally Posted by stanger89

unRAID is great, IF you don't already have a "server" running. If you've got a bunch of PCs and want a new device to colocate all your files, and only do that, then unRAID is a great solution. Many people fall into this category.

That's a really good point. In fact, one I had forgotten about considering when I made the decision to go with WHS and FlexRAID. Simply put, I didn't want ANOTHER computer running 24/7 in the house. I wanted a single server to handle all of the chores (Sage, uTorrent, remote access, backups, all storage, etc.) and that would be the only one running 24/7.

[S_M_E]

Originally Posted by bastafidli

VIA Technologies last week announced an eight-bay NAS aimed at Windows Home Server applications.

I hadn't seen that but I'd rather just put the 8 more drives in my WHS. Even if it means buying a larger case and power supply it'd be cheaper than buying one of those.

That would be good for people that buy the pre-built WHS units and need more space though.

[toony]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

That's a really good point. In fact, one I had forgotten about considering when I made the decision to go with WHS and FlexRAID. Simply put, I didn't want ANOTHER computer running 24/7 in the house. I wanted a single server to handle all of the chores (Sage, uTorrent, remote access, backups, all storage, etc.) and that would be the only one running 24/7.

UnRaid vs Flexraid, it's allot more clear. Although I would like to have only the server running 24/7 in my house, I don't want it to be running any torrents / newsgroups etc, strictly media storage/serving and eventually security camera system. However there are no other computers I need to be backing up, if anything needs to be it can be copied to the server for storage.

Originally Posted by Skirge01

I picked up the Supermicro X7DWE and paid around $300 for it on ebay. I could've easily gone with a cheaper (~$100) motherboard, but they aren't built with the same quality standards as a server mobo is and they didn't have enough PCI-e slots for any of my future, unknown, needs. The X7DWE is meant to run in pretty harsh conditions, 24/7, for many, many years. That $100 mobo might need to be replaced several times over the years I run this Supermicro. Peace of mind isn't something you can put a price on and I was willing to pay a little more to have that. I don't expect everyone to agree with my thinking, but that's the freedom we're each entitled to.

I checked out that mobo, it's a pretty nicepiece of equimpent. Are you running dual procs? Xeon? which ones?

I know that Xeon are server procs, do you think they might be a bit overboard for this application? not to mention running dual procs?

Or are they built for 24/7 application?

[toony]

I was trying to find out is WHS was 32 or 64 bit... and came across this.

You think 64bit procs are the way to go?

"Will Windows Home Server v2.0 be 64-bit Only?

Fri, Jun 15, 2007 | Terry Walsh

Okay, I know v1 isn’t even out the door yet, but if you’re thinking of purchasing new hardware to run Windows Home Server on, then it’s worth thinking this through.

All of the current Windows client (i.e. Vista and XP) and Server (2003, 2008 etc) releases support 32 bit processors, and over the past few years Microsoft have been gradually offering 64-bit processor compatible versions of their operating systems.

Microsoft have gone on the record to say that Windows Server 2008 will be the last 32-bit server operating system, which means, if the WHS team decide to align to this policy, the next version of WHS we see (in x years time) may well be for 64-bit processors only.

Interestingly, the new Windows Home Server RC - Getting Started Guide that yiu downloaded with the beta also offeres a pretty big hint along these lines in the Hardware Requirements section.

“Windows Home Server includes a 32-bit operating system, which runs on 32-bit and 64-bit Intel EM64T and AMD x64 architectures. Future versions of Windows Home Server may support 64-bit processors only, so it is recommended that you use a 64-bit compatible processor in order to make sure that you can upgrade to future versions”.

So, whilst it’s premature right now to worry to much about v2.0, if you are buying kit for a WHS home-build, then it’s probably a wise move to think about using a 64-bit "

[S_M_E]

There was a rumor that WHS v2 will be based on win2k8 but MS won't confirm nor deny it. 64bit is the future, until 128bit comes around.

I love Vista64 with 8G RAM for my main workstation now that I've made the switch. I'm looking forward to w7-x64 too. YMMV...

[toony]

Originally Posted by S_M_E

There was a rumor that WHS v2 will be based on win2k8 but MS won't confirm nor deny it. 64bit is the future, until 128bit comes around.

I love Vista64 with 8G RAM for my main workstation now that I've made the switch. I'm looking forward to w7-x64 too. YMMV...

128 bit ! oh man, I'm still running 32bit. lol.

I'm sure it would be best to get 64 bit procs for the server regardless. It's one of those, I'd rather go big now and leave it alone for as many years as possible instead of penny pinching now.

[S_M_E]

At least you're not running 16bit. Most processors today already support x64. You can still find older CPUs that only do 32bit but I wouldn't want one in my Sage/WHS server...

[Skirge01]

Originally Posted by toony

UnRaid vs Flexraid, it's allot more clear. Although I would like to have only the server running 24/7 in my house, I don't want it to be running any torrents / newsgroups etc, strictly media storage/serving and eventually security camera system. However there are no other computers I need to be backing up, if anything needs to be it can be copied to the server for storage.

Honestly, I initially thought the same thing and that's why I was planning on just a NAS box. But, as I thought about the future, I decided that I didn't want to lock myself into something as task specific as an unRAID box. Then, I figured I'd just get WHS running for using Sage. As I kept reading about WHS, I realized the potential. I have no regrets on that front. WHS is great. If had gone unRAID, I'd now have an unRAID box and would be building a WHS box this year to handle all the other things unRAID can't do.

I checked out that mobo, it's a pretty nicepiece of equimpent. Are you running dual procs? Xeon? which ones?

Nope... just one Xeon for now. I really didn't think I'd ever need dual processors, but the mobo had the slots I wanted. I'm running the low power, 50W Xeon L5410 which runs at 2.33GHz. BTW, the processor is currently AIR COOLED using a Thermalright Xeon cooler similar to the Ultra-120. This is one QUIET server, which was another objective.

I know that Xeon are server procs, do you think they might be a bit overboard for this application? not to mention running dual procs?

My initial answer would be yes, but it really depends on what you do with the server. If you get into commercial skipping, the quad cores will be a savior. Also, as always, consider the future possibilities for WHS and/or SageTV. They're certainly not going to get LESS complex and require LESS powerful hardware. Again, my thought was to overbuild so I didn't need to rebuild the entire server in 2 or 3 years. With this setup, I can add FOUR cores to my server by just dropping in a CPU. How cool is that?

Or are they built for 24/7 application?

Xeons are definitely built for 24/7 operation, are meant to run in demanding conditions, and should hold up better over time. Let's face it... if you're paying close to $400 for a processor like this, it better be justified! Businesses would be up in arms if the Xeons weren't more robust.

[paulbeers]

Originally Posted by stanger89

unRAID is great, IF you don't already have a "server" running. If you've got a bunch of PCs and want a new device to colocate all your files, and only do that, then unRAID is a great solution. Many people fall into this category.

But if you're like me, you've already got a PC running all the time as a "server", so the requirement for a dedicated PC makes unRAID unattractive. That's really unRAID's Achilies heel, it must be installed on a dedicated PC, and can't really do anything else.

I may have to look into FlexRAID again when I fill up my newly upgraded NAS.

I also have to recommend FlexRAID. All of the "stuff" on my file server are all items that do not change frequently (DVD rips, photos, Music, etc). In fact it changes so little, that I only have mine updating once a week (could I do it more often, sure but the server it is on is a lowly Athlon 1.1GHZ). As soon as my new Case and SATA Card arrives, both of my servers are going to be combined into one (Right now I just don't have a case with the ability to hold 9 hard drives and my server only has 5 SATA ports).

[kbyrd]

How does FlexRaid perform? I assume it doesn't actually stripe. One of the reasons I chose RAID5 (software, using Linux md) was that I was concerned about a stock drive dealing with 2 recording streams and 2 playback streams all at the same time. I would prefer the flexibility of something like [Flex|un]Raid, I don't really need the uptime that RAID5 gives me, I wouldn't mind losing some content until I replaced it from a backup, but I don't want simultaneous recordings and playback suffering because it's all going to one drive in the end.

[paulbeers]

Originally Posted by kbyrd

How does FlexRaid perform? I assume it doesn't actually stripe. One of the reasons I chose RAID5 (software, using Linux md) was that I was concerned about a stock drive dealing with 2 recording streams and 2 playback streams all at the same time. I would prefer the flexibility of something like [Flex|un]Raid, I don't really need the uptime that RAID5 gives me, I wouldn't mind losing some content until I replaced it from a backup, but I don't want simultaneous recordings and playback suffering because it's all going to one drive in the end.

FlexRaid speed has virtually nothing to do with the "Raid" speed. FlexRAID lets you treat each hard drive as its own drive so in my case when I go into "My Computer", I see 6 hard drives on my server (OS drive, 4 drives for file storage, and 1 parity drive). So the speed is whatever each individual drive has for a maximum thoroughput. For all of my drives it is >60MB/s. What Flexraid then does is at a scheduled time, it takes your storage drives and creates the parity bits for each of your storage drives and stores it on your Parity Drive (I should say that Flexraid can also do this at the folder level too so you could Flexraid with only 1 drive if you really wanted to). Your thoroughput is never increased or decreased due to the "raid".

As previously stated, it is really a "snapshot" raid in that it creates the parity bits based on how your storage drives are at any given moment. It does not create the parity bits at the time of transfer but at a given point. I do all of my raid "synchronization" on Wednesday mornings at 12:00 AM so it is as seemless to me as possible.

In my case, there is no reason to keep my recordings. If I lost some television shows, ho hum. Big woopity do. I can catch it on re-airing or grab it off iTunes or something. What I am concerned about is loosing my 200+ DVD collection. This collection only grows by about 4-8 discs per week so even if I had a failure by a drive before the snapshot was created, the worst I would lose is a couple of DVD's.

As for recording and viewing 2 streams at once, I just use 2 hard drives (so I can't say how many were recording and viewing on each hard drive) and have never had a problem recording two HD streams and watching something on two others. I think a lot of people are concerned about thoroughput of hard drives, but we have to remember that even 1080i programming has only thoroughput requirement of less than 3 MB/s. A modern hard drive has 20 times that thoroughput (where hard drive issues arrise is that they can't send 20 streams effectively, but 5-6 is not a problem if each is less than 3MB/s).

[kbyrd]

It's not the throughput I was worried about so much as the seeking or just number of IOPS. Maybe this is just about old crappy drives vs something made in the last year. I had problems recording two streams to a single drive early on with Sage, the recordings had missing data. I checked all the obvious things and it came down to me being pretty sure the drive just couldn't write two HD streams at once, let alone play something else at the same time.

[Skirge01]

I've got 4 tuners (3 OTA and 1 HD-PVR) in my WHS box. FlexRAID is scheduled to run at 10am every morning, which is usually a time when only the HD-PVR will be recording, but I have also had at least 2 OTA tuners recording at the same time. I haven't seen any recording issues for those programs. Also keep in mind that FlexRAID is smart enough to only recalculate for the changes. Of course, it's performance is also contingent on how fast your parity drive is. I have several of WD's Green drives, but I made sure the parity drive was a speedy 7200rpm drive, such as the Samsung F1.

I honestly don't see a cause for concern. I was more concerned about the wear and tear a RAID5 array would have done to the (non-enterprise class) drives.

[toony]

This sounds fairly easy to use, Flexraid that is. If I am correct in my understanding, basically it is an application that is scheduled to run and not something running constantly controling drives. Kind of like making parity files using quickpar for winrar files.

I ordered a copy of WHS and now am looking for some procs and a mobo. I think I am going to go with the same Supermicro X7DWE. They are not all that common with computer suppliers in Canada so it may be a special order from the wholesalers, or maybe ebay.

REgardless I should start my build in the next 4 weeks. I have to decide on getting yet another large case or keep my 8 drive one for now. Probably should just do that for now.

[toony]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

I picked up the Supermicro X7DWE and paid around $300 for it on ebay.

Been having a hard time finding that mobo in Canada at a reasonable price, cheapest so far is $475 from newegg. Ebay guys won't ship to Canada for some reason.

Any U.S. friends interested in helping a fellow sage'r out with some shipping logistics? lol

[Skirge01]

Originally Posted by toony

Been having a hard time finding that mobo in Canada at a reasonable price, cheapest so far is $475 from newegg. Ebay guys won't ship to Canada for some reason.

Any U.S. friends interested in helping a fellow sage'r out with some shipping logistics? lol

Hehe... out of curiosity, I checked Newegg myself when you said it was tough to find. I was pretty surprised at their price. I did some Googling and found this thread which may give you some ideas for dealing with the "US only" sellers. Sorry I can't offer to help you out directly, due to personal issues.

[toony]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

Hehe... out of curiosity, I checked Newegg myself when you said it was tough to find. I was pretty surprised at their price. I did some Googling and found this thread which may give you some ideas for dealing with the "US only" sellers. Sorry I can't offer to help you out directly, due to personal issues.

That's cool, it was worth a shot

I checked out that thred and the site www.shopthestates.com does not work anymore. To top it off I actually have an American address but no one is going to be there for a couple months, and then bringing it back will probably get stuck at customs.
Even if one of these ebay sellers do ship to me there will be a nice big customs fee so I would propbably be best just to order from newegg.

It's quite frustrating now that our dollars are basically on par. Don't get me started on buying a car here versus the states! lol

edit - I just found some American address postal forwarding companies... going to figure out the customs.