Subtitles ON/OFF switch for imported videos

[Patilan]

<sigh>
Kill the troll with silence.

[S_M_E]

Good idea...ignore time.

[scanner95]

I'm a complete novice with Sage, trying the software. I will be using the headless with extender if I ever decide to purchase it. However I did not have luck of playing my .avi with .srt subtitles - they are not recognized (I'm using the player on one machine and a server on another one).
So is this supposed to work?
Thanks!

Originally Posted by S_M_E

I use the stock ui but I only have one movie that I use .srt subs for and it works. While an "on/off" switch may be nice you should have known that there wasn't one before you bought it and you shouldn't act like they owe you one either, imo.

[S_M_E]

Originally Posted by scanner95

I'm a complete novice with Sage, trying the software. I will be using the headless with extender if I ever decide to purchase it. However I did not have luck of playing my .avi with .srt subtitles - they are not recognized (I'm using the player on one machine and a server on another one).
So is this supposed to work?
Thanks!

Like I said, I only have one and it works. I normally remove subs, I'm not a subtitle expert by any means so I don't know why it worked if it doesn't work for others. Perhaps it's something from a codec pack that got installed, I just don't know, I wish I could help more.

I don't even know if it's "supposed" to work, subtitles aren't even mentioned on the "Features" page of the SageTV site so I wouldn't expect it to work. I'd say that any subtitles that do work are a bonus. YMMV...

http://www.sagetv.com/stvfeatures.html?sageSub=tv

[TwistedMelon]

My suggestion is to file a feature request though customer support. Use the bug reporting form or send an email. Posting here in the forum as far as I'm concerned, is mostly for user-to-user discussion and I wouldn't expect the Sage guys to monitor anything but a couple of threads here and there.

The Sage UI only provides a subtitle feature when playing DVD with a complete VIDEO_TS structure - from DVD drive or HD. In that case you will have access to all the subtitles that are contained within that DVD structure.

Such subtitles are encoded into the VOB file structure that also holds the video and audio. Subtitles are graphical for DVDs, they are not "text" that can be easily exported.

If you plan to transcode your DVDs to make them easier (smaller) to store, then the only way to have access to the subtitles is to have them saved as text files in a format compatible with a third-party tool or plugin. To get from a DVD's graphical subtitles to a text file you'll have to get a VOBSUB extractor and converter. This will run Optical Character Recognition (OCR) to create the text. You'll have to provide it with a lot of hints because I've never seen OCR work on a graphical subtitle without making mistakes or getting stuck on some characters.

Using the Closed Captioning plugin you can save the subtitle text as a SAMI file as already mentioned. Get Subtitle Workshop which allows you to convert from one text format to another - plus make corrections for timing. This will work on the server side as well as with Extenders if you have installed the Plugin correctly (see the plugin thread and my notes about getting it to work with HD200).

If you're using SageTV directly on a computer then you can use the FFDSHOW video decoder which has support for SRT subtitle files. You can just turn on the sub display in the FFDSHOW prefs UI.

In both cases above, the subtitle files should be named exactly the same as the video file, except for the file extension.

I think most people with a need for subs are in agreement that they'd like to see native/built-in support in SageTV's standard UI for display and the ability to turn on/off and selecting subs for all video content, not just DVDs.

Support for srt, smi (both text) and sub/idx (graphical) would really be appreciated. The UI could be the same as the current one shown when playing a DVD (option in the options menu as well as a dedicated command to cycle between all available titles).

[Patilan]

Originally Posted by TwistedMelon

If you plan to transcode your DVDs to make them easier (smaller) to store, then the only way to have access to the subtitles is to have them saved as text files in a format compatible with a third-party tool or plugin.

Err... this is not really the case. I don't need any third-party tools or plugins:

I can extract the original "graphical" subtitles from the DVD and keep them just like that (.sub/.idx). Then I can convert the movie to h.264, and these original subtitles play perfectly well in SageTV (when SageTVPlayer is my MPEG4 player).

My only problem is that I can't easily turn OFF/ON the visibility of these subtitles. By easily I mean without getting off the couch, shutting down SageTV, editting sage.properties, and restarting SageTV. That's the whole issue actually.

Yours,
Patilan

[scanner95]

I've just opened a support request for this feature. Lets see what reaction (if any) I get for it.

[TwistedMelon]

Originally Posted by Patilan

Err... this is not really the case. I don't need any third-party tools or plugins:

We were talking about the UI, so my original comment is quite correct and applicable. If you want to control subtitle visibility from the UI, you need text-based subs and third-party plugins, for anything other than Imported DVD folders.

BTW, does anyone know if Sage respects FORCED subtitle segments? These are the segments in a subtitle file that should appear even when subtitles have not been expressly turned on. Such as in an English movie when there is a foreign language spoken that should be subtitled and the subs are not burned into the video (Sum of All Fears as an example).

I'm not sure if the text-formats (or any plugins to deal with them) support any type of forced flag or attribute. I've just recently started making Video_TS backups of some of my DVDs, but have yet to test the forced subtitle question. Even with all the drives I have hanging off my server and shrinking of DVD content, I'll need a lot more drives to fit all my DVDs.

[Patilan]

Originally Posted by TwistedMelon

If you want to control subtitle visibility from the UI, you need text-based subs and third-party plugins

You are not paying attention. Picture-based subs work perfectly. Try it yourself.

And plese, I really don't want to hear about "third-party plugins". A commercial product should work out-of-the-box.

Patilan

[Razillian]

Originally Posted by Patilan

And plese, I really don't want to hear about "third-party plugins". A commercial product should work out-of-the-box.

I'm not trying to troll here, matter of fact I don't want an argument at all on this subject, but I am really sick of that statement. Really, really sick, because I'm actually replying.

I'm sure this feature is important to you, so you get a little frustrated and emotions run high as a result, but for the life of me I can not find anywhere on the SageTV website where it states that this particular feature is available as part of Sage.

My car doesn't fly and the backpack I bought my daughter for school isn't a jetpack (if it was I would have kept it ). Those are commercial products, shouldn't they have all the features I want even though they don't claim to have them?

Yes, somethings that Sage claims to do get broken from time to time, and when it happens they provide free updates to make sure those claims are fixed and valid. This is not one of those cases. Heck, with the exception of one single pay upgrade they have provided free updates to add a bazillion (yes, that is a lot) of new features that they never claimed to have when I first bought the product.

Point is, relax for a moment, stop thinking the world is full of mind readers whose every product should be catered to your will, and just open a feature request though the Sage support page. I have complete faith that they will add it, they always have in the past. Atleast when someone asked nicely. If you've already done this, just be patient. It's a virtue afterall.

[scanner95]

Originally Posted by Razillian

Point is, relax for a moment, stop thinking the world is full of mind readers whose every product should be catered to your will, and just open a feature request though the Sage support page. I have complete faith that they will add it, they always have in the past. Atleast when someone asked nicely. If you've already done this, just be patient. It's a virtue afterall.

I did open a feature request for subtitle support in the HD200 (both extender and standalone mode), and in SageTV in general. I have specifically asked for several formats (.srt included) and languages. And I have referenced several threads in the forum, including this one.
I'm not sure my requirements about this feature are the same as Patilan's. Unfortunately, there is no possibility to the community members to contribute their remarks directly linked to the specific feature being developed (like in Squeezecenter, for example; but this is open-source). Or is there?
Anyhow, I just got a short reply from Sage engineer (George Oms), stating this:

Thank you for your suggestion. I will pass it along for you.

So lets be hopeful!
Peace

[Wheemer]

Television watching is always commonly associated with having the closed caption feature. Backpacks are not commonly jet powered.

If Sage wants us to use their product in place of our television, then they should offer the features we already have been used to.

Don't forget that Sage is ignoring a certain percentage of disabled users by doing this.

[Razillian]

Originally Posted by Wheemer

Television watching is always commonly associated with having the closed caption feature. Backpacks are not commonly jet powered.

If Sage wants us to use their product in place of our television, then they should offer the features we already have been used to.

Don't forget that Sage is ignoring a certain percentage of disabled users by doing this.

I agree whole heartedly, it really should be a feature in Sage. It is one of those things that just make sense and would be relatively easy to implement. My only problem is that one statement that Patilan keeps making over and over. While there is no place that Sage makes the claim that it supports Closed Captions, they do say Customize SageTV with SageTV Studio. User plugins *are* part of their current feature list (and in more than one place), while CC is not.

p.s.
The jet backpack was meant as a goofy analogy, but I want my jetpack still! I was promised it 50 years ago (as well as flying cars), so the industry owes me. Owes all of us. Gosh darn it!

[JREkiwi]

Originally Posted by Razillian

I agree whole heartedly, it really should be a feature in Sage. It is one of those things that just make sense and would be relatively easy to implement.

Relatively easy, based on what? It's certainly not moon landing material, but if it was so easy, don't you think SageTV would have just done it, even if only to save themselves the aggravation.

John

[Razillian]

Relatively easy based on Patilan being able to stop SageTV, edit one line in the properties file and start SageTV to switch back and forth between on and off. Atleast for picture based subs. The other methods for CC, I don't know. But the thread was started by Patilan about this particular method, so that is what I am talking about.

If it is just a property file change for an on/off switch, than programatically it really is "relatively easy to implement". Yes, I am a programmer (and a damn good one at that). Over 20 years in the making as a matter of fact.

Now onto the mind reading part. Why hasn't Sage done it yet... Using my great and powerful Oz brand crystal ball and seer scope, I would guess that supporting one type of CC in the Sage interface would create more outcry for supporting other types. And those other types are probably not relatively easy. The proverbial "Can O' Worms" as it were. Of course the great Oz has been known to be wrong or I'd be much much wealthier

[Wheemer]

IF SageTV wants to play with the big boys, like Microsoft, they certainly shouldn't complain. It's irrelevant how difficult it is, since the competition is already doing it, perfectly.

I have seen ridiculously old tvs that do it perfectly. There is standards already in place, it's not reinventing the wheel.

[QueOnda]

If it's important, request it.

Here is what email message I got form Sage Support.

Unfortunately we don't support .srt files at this time.

I have requested it but I hope they hear from all of you.

[Patilan]

Originally Posted by Razillian

I'm not trying to troll here, matter of fact I don't want an argument at all on this subject, but I am really sick of that statement. Really, really sick

Sorry for making you really, really sick. I suppose I should tell you why the subject is so important to me: I am going deaf. There! Happy?

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by Patilan

Sorry for making you really, really sick. I suppose I should tell you why the subject is so important to me: I am going deaf. There! Happy?

yup, to those that are hard of hearing, CC is must-have. I suffer from Otoslerosis, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otosclerosis , which caused about a 25db loss of hearing in both ears. Basically picture walking around with shooting ear muffs on all day. Luckily I was able to get surgery to replace some bones in my right ear with a prostetic to give me somewhat normal hearing in my right ear. Makes watching TV and having normal conversations much easier.

But before the surgury, I relied heavily on CC, which is why I seemed to take on CC in Sage as my mission a couple years ago.

[Razillian]

Originally Posted by Patilan

I am going deaf. There! Happy?

Actually I woke up in a very good mood this morning, so yes I am. Thank you for asking.

I kinda figured the going deaf part out on my own. Either you or someone in the household with you. Generally tends to be the reason people want CC, which as I already stated above I think should be part of Sage. The part that bothered (bothers) me is the apparent chip on your should against Sage and those that defend Sage (such as the above quoted comment that I could only assume was designed to try and make me feel small for the hand you have been dealt).

The fact that there are plugins that handle some (or maybe all, not sure) of what you want in Sage combined with your unwillingness to use them, even in the interim until Sage adds CC, tells me that you just want to complain.

I support what you say you want. I just don't support your method. The ends do not justify the means.