Is the STV plague speading through BTV?

[MarcP]

Originally Posted by Jason

Having been one of the originators of that 'hacked community-driven' interfaces... I suppose I should take offense...

I didn't mean "hack" in a bad way. I was referring to the fact that it's unsupported, but I guess it was a poor choice of words. It's unsupported and therefore the talented developers (did I chose my wording right? ) are on their own to figure things out. And the "unsupported" part can show at times.

[MarcP]

Originally Posted by dmeglio

Yes I know BTV sells it as a separate plugin, but I'd rather spend $30 to have an integrated solution rather than what basically amounts to a hack to get it to work in Sage...

But if BTV can't playback the DVDs that it burns, whats the point? You have to buy another piece to do it (i.e. Beyond Media).

[mayamaniac]

Originally Posted by MarcP

But if BTV can't playback the DVDs that it burns, whats the point? You have to buy another piece to do it (i.e. Beyond Media).

Thats funny, thanks for pointing out the obvious backward thinking of BTV developers.

[evilpenguin]

Originally Posted by dmeglio

Hmm the only thing I'm hearing that really bothers me is the lack of integrated DVD burning. Yes I know BTV sells it as a separate plugin, but I'd rather spend $30 to have an integrated solution rather than what basically amounts to a hack to get it to work in Sage... any reason why this feature has not been added?

Also, the Sage DVD burning plug-in should be getting much less hack-ish soon

[Khristopher]

Originally Posted by MarcP

But if BTV can't playback the DVDs that it burns, whats the point? You have to buy another piece to do it (i.e. Beyond Media).

Yeah that one never made sense to me either.

Charge for a plugin, to make DVDs, that you can't watch using the program that burned them. Huh?!

LOL

[MeInMaui]

Originally Posted by Khristopher

Yeah that one never made sense to me either.

Charge for a plugin, to make DVDs, that you can't watch using the program that burned them. Huh?!

LOL

Well, to be fair, I would think that anyone who is saavy enough to have a computer-based PVR would have some means of playing DVD's already. This could be with BM, another app, or a stand-alone player. Also, the idea behind burning shows to DVD is probably more for portability than for archiving, since the number of shows that can be fit on each disc is very limited.

Anyway, I guess I don't see the problem with charging for an add-on that provides some useful functionality. Whether the code resides in the base software and requires a key to unlock or is distributed separately is just semantics. I've used a number of apps that use this approach where all of their extra modules are present and require a key to unlock.

Aloha,
Mike

[Khristopher]

Originally Posted by MeInMaui

Well, to be fair, I would think that anyone who is saavy enough to have a computer-based PVR would have some means of playing DVD's already.

Not necessarily. I set one up for my parents and without me to check on it every now and then, they'd be completely lost with it.

Originally Posted by MeInMaui

Anyway, I guess I don't see the problem with charging for an add-on that provides some useful functionality. Whether the code resides in the base software and requires a key to unlock or is distributed separately is just semantics. I've used a number of apps that use this approach where all of their extra modules are present and require a key to unlock.

The problem lies in their promise that "Point releases are free". For them to include the Plugin code into the base code, but charge to activate it, really rubs me the wrong way because it's contracting in nature. How can they charge extra for a "Plugin" that is already included in the base code?

I don't feel it's a case of semantics at all. This is Snapstream's futile attempt to milk more money out of their users. They don't have any problems with making promises which never come to light (Integration promise back in 2005). So to promise free point releases, and then skirt around the issue the way they did, really disgusts me.

[MeInMaui]

Originally Posted by Khristopher

The problem lies in their promise that "Point releases are free". For them to include the Plugin code into the base code, but charge to activate it, really rubs me the wrong way because it's contracting in nature. How can they charge extra for a "Plugin" that is already included in the base code?

I don't feel it's a case of semantics at all. This is Snapstream's futile attempt to milk more money out of their users. They don't have any problems with making promises which never come to light (Integration promise back in 2005). So to promise free point releases, and then skirt around the issue the way they did, really disgusts me.

I suppose you could make the same argument with SageTV. After all, the media extender code is distributed with the base software but requires purchase of a license key for activation. And it was initially released at a time when _all_ upgrades were free. My point is just that if you are going to make this kind of argument you should be consistent.

And I do still think this is all semantic. Resources went into development of an additional feature beyond the scope of a 'point update' and the developers deserve to be compensated for their effort by charging for it (this is a business after all). They could have just as easily distributed it separately or even provided an 'installer' that did nothing but put some pretty graphics on the screen and then ask for your key (and you would be none the wiser).

Anyway, I just wanted to voice a balancing viewpoint as I really don't want the SageTV user community to get the reputation of being people who blindly bash competitors software. I don't want this to devolve into an argument, so this is probably the last I'll say on the matter.

Aloha,
Mike

[Khristopher]

Originally Posted by MeInMaui

I suppose you could make the same argument with SageTV. After all, the media extender code is distributed with the base software but requires purchase of a license key for activation. And it was initially released at a time when _all_ upgrades were free. My point is just that if you are going to make this kind of argument you should be consistent.

The difference here is that the media extender code doesn't provide any NEW functionality other than being able to use it in a remote location. The BTV DVD Plugin is a completely new feature and was sold as a "Plug-In".

Originally Posted by MeInMaui

And I do still think this is all semantic. Resources went into development of an additional feature beyond the scope of a 'point update' and the developers deserve to be compensated for their effort by charging for it (this is a business after all). They could have just as easily distributed it separately or even provided an 'installer' that did nothing but put some pretty graphics on the screen and then ask for your key (and you would be none the wiser).

What makes your viewpoint more balanced than mine? I spent 3 years using BTV and am very familiar with it. Am I not able to voice a truthful opinion based upon my own experience instead of coming across as someone who blindly bashes the competitors?

How do you differentiate between which new features will be included in the point releases and which ones they will charge extra for? Both required R&D.

Actually, I would have preferred to download an additional program to install the Plugin. (Even if it did nothing but displayed pretty graphics, as you said). A Plugin is an EXTERNAL piece of software IMO......it should not be built into the base code.

Originally Posted by MeInMaui

Anyway, I just wanted to voice a balancing viewpoint as I really don't want the SageTV user community to get the reputation of being people who blindly bash competitors software. I don't want this to devolve into an argument, so this is probably the last I'll say on the matter.

By offering it as an additional download, they could have saved themselves a lot of hard feelings from users because of their "Free Point Release" promise.

[MeInMaui]

Originally Posted by Khristopher

What makes your viewpoint more balanced than mine? I spent 3 years using BTV and am very familiar with it. Am I not able to voice a truthful opinion based upon my own experience instead of coming across as someone who blindly bashes the competitors?

Ok, I'll just say this and then I'll shut up.

I wasn't trying to say my opinion is more balanced. I was saying that I am providing an opposing opinion to bring some balance to the discussion.

You can voice your opinion all you want within the bounds of the forum rules. I have no problem with that at all. My concerns were if everyone just agrees with you then we as a group look like we are just bashing the competition. This is why I felt the need to post an opposing opinion.

I think I'll go watch TV now.

Aloha,
Mike

[Khristopher]

Originally Posted by MeInMaui

I wasn't trying to say my opinion is more balanced. I was saying that I am providing an opposing opinion to bring some balance to the discussion.

Fair enough. Point understood.

Originally Posted by MeInMaui

My concerns were if everyone just agrees with you then we as a group look like we are just bashing the competition.

Wouldn't it simply be a group of people who are agreeing with one another?

[Webbo]

Just made the jump and purchased Sage after 2 years with BTV. The real deal breaker for me was lack of DVB-T support for the UK.

Just need to get the following working now...

2xHauppauge Nova-T 500 DVB-T cards (4 tuners)
1xHauppauge PVR-250 with Red-Eye serial to change channels on cable box
XMLTV Import into program guide
Import of existing BTV recorded programs
3 x Firefly RF remotes

Looking forward to the challenge!

[malbec]

Hey Narflex,

I would do this, but have never used BTV. That said, as someone from the business world I would encourage you to get someone, maybe even somebody here will volunteer to do it, to compile a list of all off the material features of Sage and BTV and mark off what each of them has in a side by side comparison. Don't bias it, let the facts speak for themselves, and then put it out there for reference. If it were me, I would also goes as far as to offer a $10-20 discount off the purchase price for anybody that could demonstrate that they had a BTV license they were "turning in." Maybe this gets extended to MCE and others as well, but given the number of threads I am seeing on this topic nowadays (specific to BTV), it feels like a ripe opportunity to harvest some market share to me.

My two cents...

[MarcP]

Originally Posted by MeInMaui

Well, to be fair, I would think that anyone who is saavy enough to have a computer-based PVR would have some means of playing DVD's already. This could be with BM, another app, or a stand-alone player.

So buy BTV and buy the DVD-plugin... While you think you're set, wait! There's more! Buy Beyond Media too!

Sounds like the start of a nickle-and-dime to death.

Portability or archiving, it's silly to not consider both when implementing a burning plugin. But to expect people to pay more to playback what your product produces is silly as well.

[Khristopher]

Originally Posted by MarcP

Sounds like the start of a nickle-and-dime to death.

And it continues on with their iPod/iPhone plugin!!!

[tipstir]

1 day with BTV, 3 yrs with GBPVR, 2 yrs Media Portal they're not the same as SAGETV. To me SAGETV is 100% better I've tried this software back when version 2.0 was around then started up again in March of these year.

The wife and me lost all our recordings due to GBPVR buggy software, where it didn't show timeline comskip couldn't work either, no sound got recorded on many channels so all you got a mute. They kept saying it was the PVR-150 or the drivers. But I am using same drivers with SAGETV and I don't have those problems. Everything I've setup on SAGETV gets recorded and the web server version os SAGETV is one of the best features to access the guide and favorite management is so easy on any wired or wireless PC in my place is the best feature.

Favorite Manager for first-runs make it easy and SAGETV remember when to record and I like the way it records PQ and each show has the title right there you don't have to dig into a folder for each recording like I had to do with GBPVR. Well enough said this it a great program and best of all my 7 MediaMVP playback everything SAGETV records for me.

So let's talk more about this great product and enough said but the others software PVRs that just can't compete..

[mistergq]

Hi, I am MisterGQ, and I am a BTV user. I am also a ravens fan which this season makes me do this and I enjoy using Linux, but realize I cannot switch to it 100%.

It was my plan to install the trial version of Sage and Sage Client today, but that did not happen. I had to go into my office to do end of November billing and that took longer than I thought, got annoyed with the branch manager at my bank over something really really stupid that ended with a voice mail to the district manager and searching the web for a new small business bank, and I will be heading out to the first of many holiday parties. So as you can see, it was a busy week.

I am hoping to be integrated with Sage in the next 30 to 45 days (if it wasn't the holidays, I would say 15 days).

[MarcP]

Originally Posted by mistergq

I am hoping to be integrated with Sage in the next 30 to 45 days (if it wasn't the holidays, I would say 15 days).

That keyword campaign isn't necessary here.

[mistergq]

Originally Posted by MarcP

That keyword campaign isn't necessary here.

its old habit

[mskitty666]

I tried BTV (BeyondTV) and STV (SageTV) when I installed my tuner in October. I have RTV (ReplayTV). BTV was more intuitive to me. Within minutes I had set up recordings and was ready to go. STV was not intuitive at all. I found it frustrating, overwhelming and intimidating. I deliberately did not read the instructions because I wanted to see how it would feel for my husband right off. I was in love with BTV and had written off STV.

Luckily, I always do ample research before buying a product. After a few days with BTV, I turned my full attention to STV. I read the manual and things started to fall into place. By the end of my trial with STV there was no way I could be satisfied with BTV. STV is highly customizable in just about every way, supports not only Windows but Mac and Linux as well. It is fully integrated and way more stable. I had a lot of trouble with BTV locking up or crashing. I was also very unimpressed with the level of dissatisfaction that loyal customers of BTV expressed in the online forums.

I purchased STV and am still taking my time getting to know it. I am just starting to tweak some of the settings and getting it working the way I like. These forums have been an invaluable source of help and information. If anyone is thinking of trying STV, I recommend you prepare to immerse yourself in it for the fifteen day trial. If you can, download the manual ahead of time and get a head start. I feel there is a steep learning curve, but in the end Sage is well worth it. I don't plan to have my HTPC fully operational until January. Right now I'm experimenting and learning how to tweak everything and fix problems so my server can run 24/7 without problems.