Why are we in beta hell here?

[Dekard]

Originally Posted by Crashless

Please note myself and the OP are using RELEASE versions of the software as noted in his OP and my followup. I've personally not tried Sage's beta software. I find the release versions provide that beta feeling!

edit: spelling

[mayamaniac]

Originally Posted by BergoniaC

IMO all software is always in BETA.

Yep. I also think the FINAL version is just the latest BETA. Unless the developers stopped working on it OR they completely start over from scratch, then there is no Final version.

But folks, this post is more or less a RANT so try not to get caught up in it like if its a serious complaint.

Besides, it's been mentioned many times, or at least I did, that SageTV is not easy to setup and should only be attemp by computer or PVR hobbyists. If you want something that just works, get a Tivo and smile at the fact that it "just works", but then frown and complain how it lacks features that SageTV has.

[Dekard]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

Yep. I also think the FINAL version is just the latest BETA. Unless the developers stopped working on it OR they completely start over from scratch, then there is no Final version.

But folks, this post is more or less a RANT so try not to get caught up in it like if its a serious complaint.

Besides, it's been mentioned many times, or at least I did, that SageTV is not easy to setup and should only be attemp by computer or PVR hobbyists. If you want something that just works, get a Tivo and smile at the fact that it "just works", but then frown and complain how it lacks features that SageTV has.

I've been building my own systems since 1989 and my own networks since 1994. I've installed and supported commercial networks in doctor's offices, vet clinics, jewelery stores, chiropractor's offices and commercial business of many types. Its not a question of ability, its a question of Sage's interest in customer satisfaction.

And if you are satisfied with this quality of product then so be it. As far as I go, I'll dump the whole thing for something that works. All the advanced features in the world are useless if they don't work. And right now, Sage isn't working for me and many others. Open your eyes, this board is full of people complaining about the release version 4. A wide range of complaints about a wide variety of features. And not a few about the lack of stability.

Stay in beta where people don't mind seeing a bug. Thats the point. But don't sell it untill its ready!

[mayamaniac]

The point is you should've known before you invested in SageTV that it has long ways to go before it can be user-friendly as a set-top box like Tivo. For someone with that much computer experience such as yourself, I'm surprise you dived into this so blindly. I own my first computer in 1992 and didn't really get into it until maybe 1997, but I knew what I was getting into when I started investing in SageTV. SageTV is a very complicated software and the things they are trying to accomplish isn't easy, especially for such a small company. Check out the competitions (MCE, BTV, Meedio, etc) and see how they compare to SageTV. I've done it and I'm still here.

But you can always go back to Tivo if you just want something that works like I mentioned in the previous post. So problem solved, NEXT!

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Dekard

Developers are supposed to write stable, broadly useful code. When it behaves the way Sage tv 4.x has been it looses the ability to be successful in the market place since so few people can and will go through these problems to make it work. Only the devoted and hardcore will go through this.

And how exactly do they verify that their code is "stable, broadly useful" before release? Beta testers, which in the case of most Sage releases means volunteers who try the public betas. You can use (and I'm sure Sage does) internal Quality testers, but you can only test a finite number of configs, which in the PC market is minute compared to the number of possible configs. They rely on bug reports (or lack there of) from beta users to determine when a beta has reached a point to be called a release.

Originally Posted by Opus4

I will periodically ask SageTV about something I see repeatedly on the forum & the response I often get is along the lines of: "No one has submitted a bug report or contacted tech support about that."

I work in the aerospace industry, I'm a Systems Engineer responisble for testing/verifying (among other things) one subsystem/partition/functional area of one program (one aircraft) and it's a full time job. If you want fully-qualled, fully-tested, bulletproof software, you better be prepared to pay for it, and pay for upgrades, and pay a lot more than SageTV charges.

Full testing/qualification is a VERY expensive undertaking. We spend thousands of hours testing and verifying our systems. In my area it probably costs more to test/verify the software/system, than it does to even code it (and we're not even in civil aviation where the requirements are MUCH higher). Plus, we're running an embedded system, a single, stable, locked down set of hardware, a stable, locked down OS, and full control over all the software that runs on that hardware.

In terms of overall testing (and coding) complexity, SageTV is in a whole nother league, having to deal with essentially infinite hardware, software, driver, configurations.

Moral of the story, if you're having problems file a bug report. If you're having problems, try the latest release. If you're not having problems, and aren't willing to debug them, wait to upgrade, or make a backup so you can go back. If you've got a problem that you haven't filed a bug report for, don't whine when it's not fixed.

[Jere_Jones]

Originally Posted by Dekard

Developers are supposed to write stable, broadly useful code.

If only it were that easy...

Jere

[Para]

Dekard,

However, this isn't my case. I'm using RELEASE version software, not beta. And I paid for the privilege to do so. I have no option of using an older version or rolling back to an older version since I just started using Sage.

I don't know if ANY earlier versions of the windows clients will work with the Linux server... since it was released pretty late.

But if you want access to an earlier release of the windows client, you can get 2.2.8 here:
http://download.sage.tv/SageTVClient_V2_2_8Setup.exe

IF you can use earlier client versions with the Linux (OEM?) server, then this one is a very stable one.

If not, well hang in there.

oops...looks like I have to go and update my stable release of windows now...second Tuesday of the month you know.

[Crashless]

Dekard,

I think you missed the point of my rant.

You're admittedly running an older version of the software when there are fixes that are published in the 'beta' version. Why are you complaining about bugs in the release when they have been fixed already? Is Sage supposed to go back and fix stuff and have a separate 'release' version with the fixes and none of the bugs? How rational does that sound?

What kind of problems are you having exactly? Have you posted about them? Have you submitted bug reports? Have you checked to see if it has already been addressed in the newest 'beta'?

[Dekard]

Originally Posted by Para

Dekard, oops...looks like I have to go and update my stable release of windows now...second Tuesday of the month you know.

Stable and secure are two different things. And thanks for the linkage, I'll check it out.

[PGPfan]

Hi Dekard,

I'm saddend to read about all the trouble you are having with Sage since I suspect I may have been the one that steered you here in the first place from our thread over at [H].

Regardless, please don't give up the fight on this one. We (the forum community and Sage company) are really a pretty tight knit bunch of folks and WILL work together until we can get you stable and enjoying your product. Please be as thorough as you can when listing your hardware specs (memory make and speed, timings and settings, driver versions, hardware rev., etc.) and we'll find the problem. Some of the trouble you may be experiencing, unfortunately I can't help with as I don't use Sage Linux (or Linux at all) yet. However this board is packed full of knowledgeable folks that I'm sure will help. It may take some time, but trust me in the end it will be worth it.

Keep the faith, buddy!

-PGPfan

[Dekard]

Originally Posted by Crashless

Dekard,

I think you missed the point of my rant.

You're admittedly running an older version of the software when there are fixes that are published in the 'beta' version.

Older? I'm running the latest release version! The beta is better than the release? You must be joking.



(I understand what you mean about the bug fixes in beta, but you and I are coming from two different worlds. Stable means it just runs. Not that I have to configure the heck out of it, try a multitude of different versions to find one that works for me or submit multiple bug fixes trying to find a fix for a product that is already supposed to be RELEASE worthy.

Doesn't anyone here appreciate stable software?!)

[Para]

Originally Posted by Dekard

Stable and secure are two different things.

Yeah but it ruins the joke

[Dekard]

Originally Posted by stanger89

And how exactly do they verify that their code is "stable, broadly useful" before release? Beta testers, which in the case of most Sage releases means volunteers who try the public betas. You can use (and I'm sure Sage does) internal Quality testers, but you can only test a finite number of configs, which in the PC market is minute compared to the number of possible configs. They rely on bug reports (or lack there of) from beta users to determine when a beta has reached a point to be called a release.

]

Maybe I'm missing the whole point of this post but you seem to misunderstand. I'm talking about release software here. Not beta. If you want to make another point or clarify this one I'll take another look. Seems you are confusing my post to be talking about beta software when I'm talking about release.

Originally Posted by stranger

Full testing/qualification is a VERY expensive undertaking. We spend thousands of hours testing and verifying our systems. In my area it probably costs more to test/verify the software/system, than it does to even code it (and we're not even in civil aviation where the requirements are MUCH higher). Plus, we're running an embedded system, a single, stable, locked down set of hardware, a stable, locked down OS, and full control over all the software that runs on that hardware.

]

Obviously you have a good understanding of what it takes to make stable software. If Sage isn't up to it then don't brand it as a stable, release worthy product. You must know that this issue can be solved given enough development resources. If Sage doesn't have the resources they should limit the scope of the product to what they can handle. So, dump features they haven't qualified as release worthy.

[Dekard]

Originally Posted by PGPfan

Hi Dekard,

I'm saddend to read about all the trouble you are having with Sage since I suspect I may have been the one that steered you here in the first place from our thread over at [H].

Regardless, please don't give up the fight on this one. We (the forum community and Sage company) are really a pretty tight knit bunch of folks and WILL work together until we can get you stable and enjoying your product. Please be as thorough as you can when listing your hardware specs (memory make and speed, timings and settings, driver versions, hardware rev., etc.) and we'll find the problem. Some of the trouble you may be experiencing, unfortunately I can't help with as I don't use Sage Linux (or Linux at all) yet. However this board is packed full of knowledgeable folks that I'm sure will help. It may take some time, but trust me in the end it will be worth it.

Keep the faith, buddy!

-PGPfan

Hello Friend!

Yours was one of the voices that I heard when looking at this product. I checked quite a few places including [H]. All in all, the reports were this is a mature product which is wonderful. Whats interesting is that all the reviews I read were for version 2.x. Now I know why none were for 4.x...

Anyway, I'm trying to work with Tech Support but I'm still waiting for an initial response from them. I'm not throwing my hands up yet, but I'm not going to give this much longer. Pretty much used up all the time I have for this little sinkhole.

Darn shame, this has so much promise. From the responses I'm seeing here it seems Sage is either over their heads in the scope of what they are trying to do or just doesn't give a rats.... well, you get the point.

[dbfresh23]

Originally Posted by Dekard

]If Sage doesn't have the resources they should limit the scope of the product to what they can handle. So, dump features they haven't qualified as release worthy.

I guess maybe the same should be said for Microsoft? They are "rushing" the release of Vista to beat the next holiday season, knowing full well that it won't be ready for the prime time. This is why they fully expect businesses to continue using XP until they have more time to fully develop it, say by SP2 maybe?

Sage does a pretty good job being that they don't have the thousands of beta testers that MS has going over products before they are released - with bugs mind you. You may be unfamiliar with how the software biz works, but it's get the product out there then fix what's wrong with it. This isn't a SageTV thing or a Microsoft thing - it's common practice amoung virtually all software manufacturers.

[Dekard]

Originally Posted by Para

Yeah but it ruins the joke

lol

[Dekard]

Originally Posted by dbfresh23

You may be unfamiliar with how the software biz works, but it's get the product out there then fix what's wrong with it. This isn't a SageTV thing or a Microsoft thing - it's common practice amoung virtually all software manufacturers.

Well, i appreciate the consideration however I am famaliar with the software development practice you are talking about.

Does the fact that millions of people in poor countries drive around with out airbags, safety belts and proper roads make it ok? Does the fact that millions of people do drugs make it ok? If we, as consumers, accept whatever garbage that software developers want to shove down our throats what will we be left with? 1,001 features that don't work. Or worse yet, work untill you depend on them and let you down with a 'undocumented feature'.

I refuse to accept that good software can't be written. And I refuse to accept that companies can't take the time to do it right. I use apps from a myriad of developers, large and small, and consistently find good quality, stable releases. And if not, at least label it 'prerelease', 'beta', 'alpha' or whatever. But do not try to SELL it before you finish develop it.

[Opus4]

Dekard: Are most of your issues on the Linux version? I think this is precisely why SageTV held off on a Linux release in the first place, since supporting it & getting all the various hardware to work is more difficult than on the Windows version, because companies are more likely to provide & update Windows drivers & so on. Since SageTV is not offering free support for the OEM Linux version, your best bet is to continue in the Linux forum section. The Linux version is much more dependant on having the proper hardware/etc that it can use. And, people here still insisted that it be released to the public rather than just to OEMs, with the specific request that it be released w/o support if that was what it would take for them to get access to the Linux version.

If you are also running a Windows version, as I said before: While you can also use the forum to try to solve problems, contact support or submit a bug about any issues. Be sure to turn on the debug log property (debug_logging=TRUE) so that you can get log files to send to SageTV.

In terms of stability & forum posts about problems, I think you have to remember that forums will almost always only contain comments from people having problem(s). Those w/o any problems seldom come to a forum & post note after note about how things ran well today. Many people, including myself, seldom have any problems at all running SageTV, & experience no crashes at all. With this type of software, I know that there will always be people who have problems, but it often comes down to configuring the system/hardware/software that runs along with SageTV. If something in SageTV can be narrowed down & reproduced (especially w/debugging turned on), SageTV can more easily fix it. (I know that because I've found errors in versions the forum has never seen... and logs were very important in those cases. It still wasn't even crashing on those errors.)

- Andy

[dbfresh23]

Rest assured that good software has been written, we here call that SageTV.

By the sounds of it, you probably will not be happy with any PC based PVR. If you're expecting a Tivo then this probably isn't the app for you. If you want something that is highly customizable, offers more then just TV recording, and is very expandable then you're in the right place. If in fact you are looking for ONLY tv recording then maybe a Tivo or Replay would be a better bet.

[mayamaniac]

Originally Posted by Dekard

Darn shame, this has so much promise. From the responses I'm seeing here it seems Sage is either over their heads in the scope of what they are trying to do or just doesn't give a rats.... well, you get the point.

As I said before, SageTV is very complicated software and not easy to make "stable" for all PC onfigurations. Try the competing softwares, they are even worse in my opinion. SageTV is not like MS Office where its just a software. SageTV is heavily tied to the hardware in your system, meaning it must work with them. And as Stranger89 noted, there's an infinite combination of hardware in each user's computers, which make it impossible to guarantee or for SageTV to make any claims that the releases will work with all hardwares. What I don't understand is with your long knowledge of computers since the 80s and yet others and I have to explain to you these things like if you don't know better.

I'll give you benefit of the doubt that maybe you are having a bad day. Get out of the house and breathe in some fresh air. Come back later and post exactly what is your SageTV problems and maybe we can help you out.