Intel Software Raid 1

[gplasky]

The benefit of mirroring would be little if no downtime. If a drive went bad you could continue working. If the drive was hot-swappable then no downtime. Most likely your downtime would be the time to replace the faulty hard drive. Everything would rebuild in the background from the mirror drive so you could still continue to use the PC.

But you are correct in your other point, file corruptions, install of bad software, problem codecs would be mirrored to the other drive. That is why you really can't get around doing a good base image. I have a base image so when anything gets hosed or strange problems start occuring it's time to put the base image back on. I also have a different image of the base with more apps installed that I can choose to go back to. But if I continued doing images up to the latest install I could end up with an image with problems.

Gerry

[stanger89]

FWIW, I can restore and image of the boot drive in my HTPC in less time than it takes to change a (non-hot-swap) HDD.

[silkshadow]

Sorry blade. I see what you're saying. I didn't read that right.

[prowler2000]

I don't mean to be rude here ... but what kind of advice is this?

Originally Posted by silkshadow

Backing up, or raiding your OS partition is a waste of time and resources. If that gets messed up just reinstall. My windows XP partitions gets re-installed every few months because of accumulated junk.

Although I do agree "raiding" your OS is not too important if up time is not essential ... but why waste hours upon hours reloading your OS if you can reload a known good image in less than 10 minutes? (and then apply the few latest security patches)

Originally Posted by silkshadow

Its always better to start from scratch than to use an image

... it's the exact same result ... how could it be better? In fact, the image is less fragmented and quicker.

I always ghost my boot image, a great time saver.

[silkshadow]

I don't mean to be rude here ... but what kind of advice is this?

Not at all. I guess I need to explain. Imaging your OS partition IMO is crap. All your drivers are out of date and all your software versions are old. Most problems are encountered because a piece of software that is installed messes with a driver/old software version which is almost always fixed in a new version. By using an image you will just run into the same problem you had before again. What will you do then? Why you will reimage one more time. Its like a dog chasing his tail.

Furthurmore, most people who use images tend to install new drivers/software after they re-image. Exactly like, it seems, you do. This is not great because, however you do it (overwrite the old stuff or use uninstall and install), you are bound to leave some remanents of the old stuff that will cause you problems later. Its always better to start from a clean garden, if you will, than to replow an old field. Its not the same as you suggested. That is just logical. How can it be the same?

Thats why its actually really good advice.

Now, for some people, they are using an image sometimes a few weeks after they made it or they have precise version control on their software (like in corporate enviroments and for some enthusiests), thats fine and great if thats what you are doing. But for most home users, its months after their last install since the image was taken. In that the last 2-3 months how many updates has ATI made to their catalyst drivers?

Finally, slipstreaming a DVD saves you a ton of time as opposed to reimaging. You can slipstream the latest updates instead of waiting for ye old MS winupdate to run its course. What about updates to all your antivirus, firewalls, office apps, etc? Slipstreaming lets you update all those as well. Takes me 15-30 minutes to do so depending on how much stuff there is. To boot, you can controll what updates you decide to use as opposed to MS' way of forcing then all down your throat. For example, theres a thread here that states there is a bad winupdate. Well, I can exclude that the next time I need to rebuild my OS. How long does it take you to run all the individual software updaters after you reimage, not to mention downmloading and installing all the new updates and all the new 'essential' little software titles you've discovered since your last image? And lets face it, you're being forced to sit in front of your computer to deal with all the dumb user prompts. With a slipstreamed DVD you just stick it in and it does all the work for you (you can go away and do something useful till its done). The downside is that, like anything convienient, the initial setup and learning curve is steep. Once you learn it though, it becomes a breeze.

Don't get me wrong, ghost is a cool app. I was working at a tech publishing company when Ghost sent it to us for a review. Yes, Ghost not Symantec (showing my age there I guess). It was a command line app and the very first version. We all loved it. It was such a great idea. I probably have the original disk somewhere. I even still have a Ghost mousepad they sent us as a promotion. However, it was never created for home use. Its market was always the corporte IT department. Symantec is the one who started forcing it down consumers throats after they bought it.

[salsbst]

Suffice it to say that there are at least two people who see things very differently than silkshadow does. I think that the intelligent use of drive imaging is an important facet of PC health.

I would hazard a guess that many people probably don't want to reinstall their OS from scratch every couple of months, either.

[WLNE-TV]

Originally Posted by stanger89

FWIW, I can restore and image of the boot drive in my HTPC in less time than it takes to change a (non-hot-swap) HDD.

Yes, we all know that you favor your images. Some of us do not. Thanks for the advice though.

[Opus4]

I've never understood the concept of doing a completely fresh Windows install, since I don't view reinstalling Windows as an isolated event that doesn't affect anything else on my PC. One thing I've never liked about Windows is the whole registry concept, since reinstalling Windows means reinstalling everything else too... unless I'm missing an easy was to install Windows completely fresh while keeping all my previous settings and installed apps.

A friend of mine prefers to just reinstall every so often, but he makes sure that he uses only a few apps. I couldn't imagine doing a completely fresh install -- between all the apps on this machine + all the customizations for them & Windows' settings, I would spend the better part of a week trying to get everything back the way it was.

Creating an image & never doing it again for 6 months doesn't sound like a good comparison vs. reinstalling Windows. Using an imaging program means using it regularly, not using it once & then filing it. I have a backup program that saves all changed files nightly, but I also create an image weekly and before I do any major changes so I can restore easily if needed. Both of those processes have saved me a lot of time, especially after something like a hard drive failure or after deciding to roll back after trying a beta version of Windows. Without an imaging program, I never would have considered using a beta version of Windows.

- Andy

[korben_dallas]

Originally Posted by Opus4

between all the apps on this machine + all the customizations for them & Windows' settings, I would spend the better part of a week trying to get everything back the way it was. - Andy

This is EXACTLY why I'm using a motherboard-based Raid 1 mirror. Zero downtime in case of a single drive failure. As stable as my machine has been the last 6 months, I really think a drive failure would be the only cause for me to reinstall Windows.

[Opus4]

Yeah, I see RAID 1/5 & images/backups as complementary tools: instant recovery of the current system and the ability to restore a previous version of the system if some change goes awry. Currently, though, the only RAID I've been using is for some persistent bugs around the house. One of these days, though...

- Andy

[dvd_maniac]

Furthurmore, most people who use images tend to install new drivers/software after they re-image. Exactly like, it seems, you do. This is not great because, however you do it (overwrite the old stuff or use uninstall and install), you are bound to leave some remanents of the old stuff that will cause you problems later. Its always better to start from a clean garden, if you will, than to replow an old field. Its not the same as you suggested. That is just logical. How can it be the same?

I do something in the middle. I installed Windows, did all the important Windows updates and left all the drivers that XP didn't load automatically uninstalled. But I typically leave the latest drivers for all my hardware on a seperate drive just in case. Then I changed all my settings to the way I like them and finally create an image.

This way, if I need to redo my system Most of the hard work is done, no bloated software and no user inputs to get back up and running...

[prowler2000]

Silkshadow – Thanks for the detailed information on your thoughts and procedures.

For those of you who are wondering what slipstreaming is and how to use it … check out this link http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/20040908/

Originally Posted by silkshadow

Imaging your OS partition IMO is crap. All your drivers are out of date and all your software versions are old. Most problems are encountered because a piece of software that is installed messes with a driver/old software version which is almost always fixed in a new version. By using an image you will just run into the same problem you had before again. What will you do then? Why you will reimage one more time. Its like a dog chasing his tail.

You make a good point here. Although I don’t think an OS image from a year ago is a great thing to use, one from 3 months ago is usually just fine. I suppose it depends on your purpose. If you have a gaming machine and always need the latest graphics drivers, etc. I can understand your approach. Although I think it would be better to load Windows with all of the OS patches, etc and leave out the special drivers – then Ghost that OS version. That way the next time you need to reload the machine, the OS goes in first via Ghost and then you can put in only the newest drivers, without any of the old crap hanging around.

In my case I don’t have a gaming machine, so my Ghosted OS load can last a long time. I do have at least 6 of the same type of computer (motherboard) … so you can imagine how much time it saves me when I want to reload them.

[silkshadow]

Thats very true Prowler. My main XP box is a gaming machine and there are tons of problems with older drivers and new games. I forget that most people run Sage on XP as I run it on 2003. For a HTPC, it seems, newer drives and such may actually cause more problems than it solves. Though I still believe clean is better than updating over old stuff with Windows OSes.

Don't get me wrong, if the choice was between spending hours in front of my computer or spending 10 minutes using an image. I'd use an image. In fact, before I discovered slipstreaming, thats what I used. Though the speed of using an image is kind of a misnomer. I rotate through different software alot. I just found it a huge pain to have to spend 2-3 hours uninstalling all the stuff from my image and install the new things. So I ended up taking an image of just Windows, office and drivers. That was pretty much useless as it was then another 2-3 hours of re-installing all the stuff anyway. However, why resort to images when you can have the best of both worlds, is what I said to myself when I discovered slipstreaming. A fully clean and updated install and far easier unattended (that was the key for me) setup sold me right away.

... unless I'm missing an easy was to install Windows completely fresh while keeping all my previous settings and installed apps.

Actually you are . I don't fully do it myself but you can rip all the settings you want to keep from your registry and config files and have it install, unattended with a slipstreamed DVD. I remember reading a mini how-to thread on it a while back. My guess its was probably here somewhere: http://www.msfn.org/board/index.php. I remember the guy was even able to save his complicated settings for Photoshop and make it portable to new versions of it. Though I don't think it was exactly easy. Like eveything else though, the first time is hard but after that it becomes easy. As for all your apps, thats the whole point of creating a slipstreamed DVD. You can just slipstream a windows CD but why not go for the whole mile and include all the apps you want to install?

I do keep alot of my configs for things though. For MS office, I keep all my reg settings and stuff so I never have to mess with choosing which font I like ever again no matter what version MS comes out with (I was able to port my stuff for 2003 from the old XP install). For Sage, I pretty much have the DVD put back all the config files after it installs the new version. If I can figure out where Sage keeps my registration info, I wouldn't even have to manually enter my serial. On this next build, I will update my HTPC server DVD with the newest Cayars and stuff and manually edit the files that need to be updated before I run the dvd. Just FYI, my Sage Server DVD takes me around an hour to get updated. 2003 is a pain in the butt while XP is relatively easy.

[InTheFlow]

Originally Posted by silkshadow

The downside is that, like anything convienient, the initial setup and learning curve is steep. Once you learn it though, it becomes a breeze.

I just discovered slipstreaming last week and started the learning curve...I was hoping that within a couple days I'd have everything worked out to where I could do a slipstreamed install on the new system I'm getting ready to build.

The basics of it are really not a big deal...especially if you follow the guide that slikshadow mentioned. The clincher comes when you start to see all the OTHER cool things you can do with it and start to learn them too! LOL

I can vouch for the fact that the learning curve is steep. Especially if you don't know about batch files and such. However, I belive that the reward of having a slipstreamed disk with all the apps and drivers installed is way worth the effort.

All my new stuff arrived on Wed and here it is Friday and I haven't even put the bad boy together yet...and I'm really itching to see what that Asus 7800GTX does with the Splendid video playback enhancement...not to mention gaming.

So, what I decided is to do an install now with the slipstreamed disk minus all the apps and drivers. Normally, I'd already be gaming with my new setup but the stuff I've learned will help a ton in the future. Especially since I'll be able to have a fresh install WITH all the goodies installed.

Another thing to keep in mind when considering slipstreaming is that there are several programs which help you do the "harder" stuff made by people who are really into it. They are great for a "quick fix" like I found I needed this week but I will be going back to learn the way the process works to get a better handle on it.

Silkshadow's link to msfn.org is an excellent resource as is thier forum.

So, as a recap...if you are getting ready to upgrade and are starting out close to zero on the knowledge scale in reguards to slipstreaming, I'd recommend waiting till you have the time to learn it to do so...either before or after your upgrade.

Of course, another option is to go with just the basic slipstream CD...it will save you a lot of time by itself. This is what I'm doing now since the itch is overcoming my ability to wait....any....longer.

BTW if anyone has the link to where Stranger89 talks about how he does his images, I'd love to read it.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by InTheFlow

BTW if anyone has the link to where Stranger89 talks about how he does his images, I'd love to read it.

It's really pretty simple, just create an image right after you install the OS (probably after the major OS updates, but you can do it before also). Then just make an incrimental image before you install anything big, by big I mean especially drivers, OS updates, maybe decoders etc. Basically before you do anything that could break something. That way if something goes wrong, you can be back up in inside 5 minutes or so.

[InTheFlow]

Thx Stranger89!

What do you use to create your image?

After creating the image do you just leave them on your network? I'm guessing that that is how you get the super fast "re-installs"...

[stanger89]

I use Acronis True Image. As for where, I leave it on a second partition on my HTPC's HDD (which contains no media).

[mikejaner]

Me too, Acronis is an awsome image package. I especially love the live backup. It's alot more reliable than Norton Ghost.